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-   -   Noob Turbo/Supercharge Questions (http://www.aleromod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29269)

rida125 10-28-2009 10:10 AM

Noob Turbo/Supercharge Questions
 
Ok so i made this thread because that other one i was beginning to loose the topic, but I dont know a whole lot about this kinda stuff, but i wanna learn.

Ok so what exactly does a turbo do?
What exactly does a Supercharger do?

What is the main difference, like why would you use one over the other?

Which one increases perfomance more?

Im sure i will have more questions but i will leave it at that for now.

THANKS

a4d2a0m 10-28-2009 10:24 AM

You have alot of reading to do....

There is like a day of typing to answer you questions.. and i am going to work.
lol.

cherrington17 10-28-2009 10:45 AM

in short, they both force air into the TB. hence why they are referred as "Forced Induction systems" or FI.

a turbo uses exhaust gases to push its spool, thus having a lag on it, before it gives its full boost. Known as "turbo lag"

a Supercharger is spun by the serp belt, giving instantaneous full load. No lag here. The downside is many trannys/engines cant handle the increased load of power, immediately. (w/o upgrading them)

Th0r 10-28-2009 10:54 AM

A Turbo is usually hooked up to a custom header, and the fumes of the exhaust that is exiting the heads will drive the turbo’s impeller. A supercharger is driven from the vehicles belt system, which is usually driven by the crank pulley.

There are 3 popular types of superchargers which all have different characteristics. 1. A centrifugal type supercharger. These compressors look like a turbo and have similar qualities. Since the belts drive the supercharger they usually are on all the time. A centrifugal supercharger will usually start building up boost in the lower RPM range and then you will see full boost at redline. A centrifugal supercharger builds boost per RPM speed. So lets say you have a 6psi system. You will start seeing 1psi around 2500 RPM and then 6psi at your redline.

The 2 other common types will be a Roots and a twin-screw type supercharger. These types offer great low end HP and torque since the boost curve comes on instantly. Unlike centrifugal type superchargers usually you see full boost in the lower RPM range and it stays linear throughout the whole RPM band. These are usually great for towing, road course racing, and even drag racing.

Now turbo systems use the exhaust fumes to drive the turbo, and usually you will have a slight turbo lag. Turbo lag is the time it takes the exhaust fumes to turn the turbo impeller. Once the impeller is spooled up usually you will reach full boost pretty quickly. Since the turbo is run off the exhaust the temperatures are normally very high and that’s why there will be a strong need for an intercooler and even a turbo timer. These items help control the heat so you do not ruin your turbo and engine.

Also another major difference is the way the boost is controlled. Since a supercharger is run off of the belt system, usually you have to change the pulley to get more boost out of it. One of the befits of this setup is that you do not have to worry about over boosting your engine, where if you do go to high in boost it will blow your engine. So usually the supercharger setup will be set at a conservative boost level, which is safe for your car. If you did want more boost all you have to do is get a smaller supercharger pulley or a larger crank pulley. This will spin the supercharger quicker giving you more boost.

Now with a turbo they have a wastegate and a boost controller that helps control the amount of boost you will get. All you have to do is turn the setting higher on the boost controller and you can change the boost pressure instantly. The convenience factor is there however the draw back is over boosting the engine and blowing it. On top of that there will be a potential risk of boost spike. Boost spike is where all of a sudden the boost pressure will go far beyond your normal setting and this can destroy your engine.

Now most supercharger systems are sold as complete kits so nothing is usually needed for it to work on your application. A lot of these kits are C.A.R.B. approved so you do not have to worry about being able to smog your car…this also means that it is legal for street use, so the cops cannot ticket you for it. Most kits will come with all the programming, fuel components, and all the belts brackets and hardware so you can bolt it on and go.

Turbo systems usually are very basic and you usually will have to add several upgrades in order for it to be safe and complete. Usually an intercooler, boost controller, turbo timer, and sometimes a wastegate is needed. On top of that you usually have to worry about the fuel components and tuning. These kits usually are not C.A.R.B. approved. A lot of streetcars will gain a more HP gains with a turbo system, however these systems usually have a custom tune in them. If you custom tune your supercharger system usually you will see equal amount of HP…or at least you will give them a run for your money.

alerored04 10-28-2009 11:10 AM

/\ Good post. I am surprised someone took the time to cover all that. Rep for you.

rida125 10-28-2009 12:12 PM

That was amazing thanks for the help.

So when you use the serp belt, then does that put more stress onto everything else in the engine?

Th0r 10-28-2009 01:12 PM

If you mean stress as in wear and tear, no. There is however a parasitic power loss due to the engine using some of its power to overcome the resistance of spinning the blower pulley. Example; the blower may provide a total extra 80hp, but 10hp of the total could go to power itself, so you'd only see a 70hp gain.

A turbo is more efficient as it is powered by waste gas and requires no effort on the engine mechanics itself to spin it.

natedawg9640 10-28-2009 01:50 PM

also... "tubor lag" is not a big green monster to be afraid of. In essence, if the turbo is sized well for the application, there should be very little if any noticable "lag" in the HP.

rida125 10-28-2009 02:17 PM

So when you have a turbo in do you do anything special with the EGR?

kwhauck 10-28-2009 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Th0r (Post 504751)
If you mean stress as in wear and tear, no. There is however a parasitic power loss due to the engine using some of its power to overcome the resistance of spinning the blower pulley. Example; the blower may provide a total extra 80hp, but 10hp of the total could go to power itself, so you'd only see a 70hp gain.

A turbo is more efficient as it is powered by waste gas and requires no effort on the engine mechanics itself to spin it.


that may have been true with older supercharger systems but with a properly designed supercharger system with a bypass valve, parasitic loss is usually less than 1hp....


Quote:

Originally Posted by rida125 (Post 504771)
So when you have a turbo in do you do anything special with the EGR?


the first thing i do with my motors, or anybody i help with is delete the EGR system, it is useless and just makes it harder to change your spark plugs...

[ion] C2 10-28-2009 05:01 PM

www.howstuffworks.com

rida125 10-28-2009 10:25 PM

:lol: thanks for all the help.

So the whipple you guys were talking about is just another brand of supercharger?
So I hear about twin turbos, what does that exactly mean? Does that mean there are two turbos in the engine?

So are adding turbos and superchargers not so much fir top speed but more for acceleration?

And people who run with nitrous usually have a turbo or super?

[ion] C2 10-28-2009 10:29 PM

Twin turbo means two turbochargers.

Adding performance mods are typically for acceleration, not top speed. It's more fun to get to whatever speed than it is to just cruise at a high speed.

People who use nitrous typically just use nitrous. A small amount is sometimes used on turbo cars to get big turbos spinning quicker.

natedawg9640 10-28-2009 10:31 PM

dont forget about water injection, or methanol injection... remote mount turbos, and prochargers... lol

rida125 10-28-2009 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by natedawg9640 (Post 504906)
dont forget about water injection, or methanol injection... remote mount turbos, and prochargers... lol


Ok, so I'm geussing methane, nitrous, and propane all do the same the thing, right?
What does water injecting do, how does that work?
What is a remote mount turbo?
What is a procharger?

natedawg9640 10-28-2009 10:50 PM

not methane... methanol/water injection. Many alcohol-water injection systems use a mixture of water and alcohol (usually 50/50), partly because the alcohol is combustible and will raise the octane level of the fuel. While water is not combustible, it has a greater capacity to cool the intake air temps down more than methanol alone. This effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel allowing performance gains to be obtained when used in conjunction with a supercharger or turbocharger, altered spark ignition timing, and increased boost levels.

procharger is actually a brand i think but it's more of a self contained centerfugal supercharger... it looks a lot like a turbo, but it's belt driven



by contrast this is an average supercharger


and a turbo charger with the compressor... the exhaust gas goes in the darker gray snail thing and spins the impeller which spins the shaft to spin the impeller inside the shiny snail... that impeller compresses the air which is forced into the intake...


a remote mounted setup is when you mount the turbo under the car, usually towards the rear of the vehicle directly onto the exhaust pipe. then the boost is piped back to the intake. some people feel that the long length of chargepipe casues mad lag, but there again, depending on the tune and the turbo, it can be very effective, especially with larger displacement engines. it's a great way of making a sleeper casue you can't see the turbo unless you start looking for it.
twin remote setup


as far as propane injection goes... i am not sure but i thought that was for diesels... although my dad used to have an old ford truck that he could hit a switch and switch completely over to run on straight propane.

rida125 10-28-2009 11:17 PM

Yeah I heard about the propane from a friend who is really into diesel power.

So with the turbos and the superchargers all they do is "force" pressure back into the cylinders so that they run faster?

[ion] C2 10-28-2009 11:25 PM

It pressurizes the air that's coming into the engine. More air that can fit in + more fuel = bigger boom.

rida125 10-28-2009 11:33 PM

So on some cars that are turboed you a pffffffing sound at shift points, what is that?

So when you say that when you turbo your car you need to tune it, your talking about how much fuel your going to be letting into the engine?

[ion] C2 10-28-2009 11:41 PM

Seriously, dude. HowStuffWorks.com. It wasn't a joke response. Search for turbocharging or supercharging. Google. Etc. It's pointless to repeat everything over and over that already exists in soooooooooooo many places. For the "pssh noise," when you let off the throttle, the throttle plate closes. All that pressurized air has to go somewhere, so a blow off valve is used to vent the pressure instead of backfeeding into the turbo and damaging it.

As for tuning, that's a whole entire different story. Learn how the parts work together first.


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