3400 W/ Manual Trans

03-21-2006, 08:29 AM

Just curious if anyone had swapped out their automatic for a manual on the 3400. I know the stock manual tranny in the 2.4's won't work, but I've heard that the new getrag tranny in the newer gm's will mate up to the 3400. I do plan on adding a turbo to the car this spring/summer, and I know that the stock auto is kind of a weak link when you start increasing HP, so I'd really like to make it a manual before I start doing the turbo setup. please let me know what kinds of problems I can run into, or if it's even possible. thanks.

El Pablo · 03-21-2006, 09:34 AM

i heard the maximum the auto trans can handle is 300 hp. thats just what i heard im still learning tho, if u pull off the manual trans lemme know

Menace · 03-21-2006, 09:49 AM

I want my car to have tiptronics

derek_ski99 · 03-21-2006, 10:16 AM

they're not that fun menace, at least for me. my dad's audi s4 is just a simple 6speed manual, thats a lot of fun. i drove a DSG audi, (with the clutchless manual w/ tiptronic) and it just kinda lacked...very well made tranny just not as much fun as a regular manual

kwhauck · 03-21-2006, 01:06 PM

swap in a 65hd tranny from the GTP, they can handle daily driven 300whp with minimal to no mods......

SilverBullet256 · 03-21-2006, 04:28 PM

yeah the whole doing a manual thing in our cars has definately been discussed and the only person i know who has actually put on in an alero with the 3400 is springsfastestalero and he is still woerking on his car and has put alot of work and money into doing it, you need to do custom mounts, the tranny itself costs alot, you need to get all the stuff like the shifter and poop from a manual 4 cyl alero, and then you need to do custom programming in your pcm, so the easiest way to get a strong tranny would be to get the 65hd from a gtp, and then get a pcm from an impala with the 3400 and the regular 65 tranny, that way the programming for the 3400 engine and the 65 hd tranny will already be programmed in

BlackJack · 03-21-2006, 09:09 PM

actually, my latest research has found that it is better to go ahead with the 4t45, because the 4t65 isn't going to be worth the hassle at all.

My build for this season that's going to be putting down ~450hp is more than likely going to only consist of a true LSD, clutches, and aluminum accumulator pistons, but that's because of what we found out GM did on '03 and later 4t45's was upgrade alot of the weak parts from the '02 and older.

(read the disclaimer "IF's")

IF your tranny is '03 and newer, and IF it has reasonably low mileage, then it SHOULD hold up to a moderate turbo build with relatively little investment compared to the manual or 4t65 conversion.

true LSD = ~$600
Raybestos Blueplate Specials (clutches) = ~$200
aluminum accumulator pistons under $100
performance torque converter ~$250

BUT, you also have to use a PowrTuner to set your line pressures and torque management to be able to do this.

In the end, much less hassle and money to do the whole setup.

Cliff8928 · 03-22-2006, 03:33 AM

It's definitely a fun ride! However, the easiest trans to swap into the Alero that bolts up to the 3400 might not be the best for handling the power. The M94 Getrag trans from the 00-02 2.2 J-Bodies with the 2200 4-cylinder bolts right up to the engine and should bolt into the mounts on the car. However it originally only had to cope with a fairly low-tech low-power 2.2.

Should mine ever get written off, I'm definitely going to find me a sport-red or steel-gray GLS Coupe and swap in a 5-speed.

BlackJack · 03-22-2006, 05:41 AM

cool, now how are you going to handle the programming....such as, torque management based on gear, rpm, fueling, all interacting to decide how the tranny needs to act.

03-22-2006, 08:29 AM

what do you mean by "how the trans needs to act"? it would be a manual trans. My buddy is a GM small car guru, that will be helping me out on this. As far as the ECU flashing/reprogramming, he has access to all the necessary equipment to take care of that part. He'll also be helping me out with the turbo setup as soon as he's done turboing his dad's fiero with a 3400. Hey the guy turboed his Z24, and ran a 12-sec 1/4-mile time on a stock engine, so I have high hopes for my ride. The interior parts are no biggie. there's a manual alero in the junkyard near here that I can steal parts from. thanks for the info, and if you have more to add lemme know, cuz this is GONNA happen, one way or another.

BlackJack · 03-22-2006, 06:41 PM

sorry, mis-worded. I meant the opposite. Your fueling, air, timing etc. is affected by gearing, rpms, load, torque effects, etc. It's not so simple as just deleting those values because it's a manual transmission. And I may be wrong, but a buddy of mine is a tech at the GM dealership also, and he does PCM flash back to stock configuration. That we know of, you'd have to get a PCM from a vehicle that came with a 3400/manual vehicle in order to make it work. Then you're going to get into rewiring issues, etc....

Nevermind, I'm going to butt out of this whole topic and let you find out the hard way.

-peace-

kwhauck · 03-22-2006, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BlackJack@Mar 21 2006, 08:09 PM
actually, my latest research has found that it is better to go ahead with the 4t45, because the 4t65 isn't going to be worth the hassle at all.

My build for this season that's going to be putting down ~450hp is more than likely going to only consist of a true LSD, clutches, and aluminum accumulator pistons, but that's because of what we found out GM did on '03 and later 4t45's was upgrade alot of the weak parts from the '02 and older.

(read the disclaimer "IF's")

IF your tranny is '03 and newer, and IF it has reasonably low mileage, then it SHOULD hold up to a moderate turbo build with relatively little investment compared to the manual or 4t65 conversion.

true LSD = ~$600
Raybestos Blueplate Specials (clutches) = ~$200
aluminum accumulator pistons under $100
performance torque converter ~$250

BUT, you also have to use a PowrTuner to set your line pressures and torque management to be able to do this.

In the end, much less hassle and money to do the whole setup.

Quoted post

450 whp or crank, even at crank i would be surprised to see what you have listed hold that power

the 65 tranny is a much better tranny with a huge aftermarket, look at GMs build book for their 900hp (something insane like that) race cobalt, it is running a 65HD Tranny (with part numbers for the buildup :heehee: )

numbers for me: $400 65HD tranny
$150 extra subframe to fab on
$100 misc little things to get it to fit

It will hold 300whp daily driven with little or no modifcations, from their on with GM warranty backed parts the future is endless for teh 65HD tranny

Oh another note, if you go get that number, how you gonna put it to the ground cuz you are gonna need a stiff ass suspension to even have a chance at gripping.......

03-22-2006, 07:31 PM

Find a wrecked G6 GTP 6 speed and swap out the front sub frame or even just swap out motor, trans and cumputer and there you have 6 speed alero

BlackJack · 03-22-2006, 07:36 PM

In advance, sorry for these guys jacking your thread, soupy.

That 4t65 transplant is going to cost WAY more than the figures you're quoting, just to get it installed. Consider also that you need another 400-500 for custom cut axles, are going to have to completely rewire your front-end harness, etc.....it's alot more than just fabbing a crossmember and dropping it in.

the tranny I'm building will hold 450hp for this season. NEXT season is the one I have to worry about when I jump to 600.

Suspension isn't a problem to get traction. Aircraft cables are tying down the front end at the shocks to limit upward suspension travel, and also to keep the drive axle geometry as close to 90* as possible during launch. These snap in and out by removable locator pins so I can put them in or take em out in under 5 minutes. Heavy springs and blocks are used in the rear to keep it from squatting. Together, this keeps the weight over the front end. After that it's just a matter of going to all performance bushings and getting drag radials or slicks. Go back and watch the ZZP Gran Prix video on the launch, they're using the same setup. No biggie, pretty simple.

Cliff8928 · 03-23-2006, 03:20 AM

For starters, I know a few people who have swapped out 5-speeds on 3100 cars with no issues, just make the PCM think it's in low gear or reverse. Not even a check-engine light! But that's with a 4T60, the 4T45 is probably a little smarter than that, and I'd imagine you might be able to modify something with a DHP or HPTuner programmer.

The 6-speed in the G6 is absolutely MASSIVE! i doubt that it would fit in the Alero without extensive modification.

The PCM would most likely cope with a manual trans fairly well.. It still knows how much load etc. because of all the sensor data (MAP, MAF, TPS, O2, etc..) If it did anything, it'd probably be like "WTF, where's the trans" and default to an electrical signal for 2nd gear which is what most do for a limp-home mode.

BlackJack · 03-23-2006, 08:16 AM

another good point, yes it will start and drive, but wont run correctly,....if you recall, limp home mode isn't exactly optimal values. It's set up to "save the damaged components" basically. Which in the later PCM setups it's telling the engine to back off of the timing and fueling tables to reduce torque.

I dont get into all the big technical terms because not all of our following here are familiar with them. (including me on some points)

SilverBullet256 · 03-23-2006, 04:44 PM

so you are saying that the 03 and up 4t45's are built stronger and could handle say 7 lb's of sc boost, headers, 2.5 cat back, and pcm, which would roughly get idk im taking a shot in the dark 270-280 hp, would it be able to handle that?

BlackJack · 03-23-2006, 07:24 PM

yes, and that's depending on your driving habits. If you drive like every stoplight is a staging tree, then ANY transmission is gonna cave in. If you drive moderately (not sheepishly) and only hit it hard once in a while, I think a stock 03^ tranny will handle 7psi without much problem.

However, keep in mind, you're saying S/C. My experience is with research in turbo applications. S/C has immediate low RPM torque which launch is where your tranny takes most of it's abuse. A turbo builds boost progressively, so as long as you aren't power-braking off the line, a 4t45 will work fine with a hairdryer at low boost levels.

SilverBullet256 · 03-23-2006, 08:45 PM

well either way an 03 with less miles than my 01 will last alot longer with the scenario i said

kwhauck · 03-24-2006, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BlackJack@Mar 22 2006, 06:36 PM
1. 400-500 for custom cut axles?
2. are going to have to completely rewire your front-end harness
3. the tranny I'm building will hold 450hp for this season. NEXT season is the one I have to worry about when I jump to 600.
4. Suspension isn't a problem to get traction. Aircraft cables are tying down the front end at the shocks to limit upward suspension travel, and also to keep the drive axle geometry as close to 90* as possible during launch. These snap in and out by removable locator pins so I can put them in or take em out in under 5 minutes. Heavy springs and blocks are used in the rear to keep it from squatting. Together, this keeps the weight over the front end. After that it's just a matter of going to all performance bushings and getting drag radials or slicks. Go back and watch the ZZP Gran Prix video on the launch, they're using the same setup. No biggie, pretty simple.

Quoted post

1. not if i have connections
2. free to do myself
3. :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: i'll believe it when i see it
4. not a bad idea maybe i'll check it out