What was GM's reasoning?

[TheEdgeofSanity]

I've wondered this question for a long time but how does GM decide which engines and transmissions to mate up for their cars?

The N-Body v6 line is of particular confusion for me....

the 2000-2004 Malibu LS had a 3100 rated for 170 hp and 190 ft-lbs of torque with the 4T40E transmission.

the 1999-2004 Alero GLS had a 3400 rated for 170 hp and 210 ft-lbs of torque with the 4T45E transmission.

why didn't they just put the 3400 and 4T45 in the Malibu or the 3100 and 4T40E in the Alero? it would seem this would save money and to the typical buyer, they see 170 HP on both cars, therefore I don't think they saw the Alero engine as being "up-level" by any means since it has the same power output. I guess I feel like if they upgraded the 3100 for the 2000 model year, they should have upgraded the 3400 as well especially since it was rated at 185 hp in its other GM applications. so what gives? it just seems wasteful all around and a dumb decision on GM's part.

[xXManwhoreXx]

For the size of our motors they make bearly any power.

The new v6 mustangs make 300 hp, the 91 type r hondas have 200 hp from a 1.6L. It confuses me just as much

[Shiwnath]

Originally Posted by xXManwhoreXx

For the size of our motors they make bearly any power.

The new v6 mustangs make 300 hp, the 91 type r hondas have 200 hp from a 1.6L. It confuses me just as much

Its hard to compare OHV vs DOHC... In most street cars there is no comparison. The DOHC 3.4 60 degree V6 made 200-210hp while our pushrods made 170.

Also look at the market back in 1999-2004 who was your typical Alero driver? Also when you buy a RWD sports car like a mustang, you're going to hope it makes some decent power. GM cars didnt really make a lot of power back then for what you paid, unless you were going to pay for something more high end.. I guess they didnt see a reason to? Same reason the 3400 never came with a manual tranny... Probably the same reasons why Oldsmobile died... They didnt market the car very well and they didnt really do a great job making it appealing when it came to engine/tranny options... Seriously what kind of V6 makes less then 200 hp...really sad.

[zzyzzx]

Originally Posted by TheEdgeofSanity

I've wondered this question for a long time but how does GM decide which engines and transmissions to mate up for their cars?

For all car companies, these decisions are made by the marketing department, or possibly bean counters. That's why the combos make no sense. Engineers should be making these decisions instead.

[kwhauck]

Originally Posted by Shiwnath

Probably the same reasons why Oldsmobile died... They didnt market the car very well and they didnt really do a great job making it appealing when it came to engine/tranny options...

Actually Alero sales were doing really well, as well as the rest of the lineup, however GM chose to kill them off from the inside on purpose. It was a setup failure. Really interesting to hear about actually. I thought we went over this already......

[colonel6632]

Originally Posted by Shiwnath

Seriously what kind of V6 makes less then 200 hp...really sad.

the 3.8l v6 in my cougar made less than 170. i think it was around 140, so my ecotec actually has more power

[Shiwnath]

Originally Posted by colonel6632

the 3.8l v6 in my cougar made less than 170. i think it was around 140, so my ecotec actually has more power

Yeah... But Ford wasnt any better than GM. At one point they were going to make the Ford Probe(which was designed by Mazda) the new Mustang, but alotta people didnt like the idea of a FWD Mustang that was Japanese designed.

[That01Olds]

Originally Posted by Shiwnath

Its hard to compare OHV vs DOHC... In most street cars there is no comparison. The DOHC 3.4 60 degree V6 made 200-210hp while our pushrods made 170.

Also look at the market back in 1999-2004 who was your typical Alero driver? Also when you buy a RWD sports car like a mustang, you're going to hope it makes some decent power. GM cars didnt really make a lot of power back then for what you paid, unless you were going to pay for something more high end.. I guess they didnt see a reason to? Same reason the 3400 never came with a manual tranny... Probably the same reasons why Oldsmobile died... They didnt market the car very well and they didnt really do a great job making it appealing when it came to engine/tranny options... Seriously what kind of V6 makes less then 200 hp...really sad.

Keep in mind a few things man.

1. the 3400 that was put in the Alero was also used in GM's minivan lineup at the time putting out the same 170 hp which to most minivan driver's that are hauling around kids all day is sufficient power.

2. The Alero was Oldsmobile's entry level car which is why it had less power than the rest of the lineup. The Intrigue which was the mid-level car put out 215 hp and the Top of the line Aurora put out 250 hp.

3. The Alero was marketed at younger buyers trying to draw them away from imports and back to domestic and at the time the Alero was sold the power it offered was more than most of the imports it was competing with and as it was already said it sold really well.

4. GM announced only a year after the Alero came out that they would be phasing out the Oldsmobile brand over the next 4 years. The Alero and Intrigue would be the last new models to the Oldsmobile line up that we would ever see and the only redesigns after that were the new Bravada and the Second gen Aurora and that was it. So why would GM put more money into a brand that they already said they were phasing out? The answer is they wouldn't and they didn't. It's sad, but true and to this day I still miss Oldsmobile.

[xXManwhoreXx]

Yea my moms mini van had the same motor as the car I was trying to make decently fast..... Fail

I just dont get it.... Why wasnt it a dohc, they're more efficient, more light weight, easier for the techs to work on.

[Mike The Canadian]

Originally Posted by xXManwhoreXx

Yea my moms mini van had the same motor as the car I was trying to make decently fast..... Fail

I just dont get it.... Why wasnt it a dohc, they're more efficient, more light weight, easier for the techs to work on.

The Corvette LS motors beg to differ.
This is a huge argument (and in my opinion misconception).

An OHV motor requires a larger displacement to make the same power; however this does not necessarily result in increase fuel consumption because it's not that simple. Go look at the weight difference between the 3400 and 3.4 DOHC; hell look at the size difference (in terms of packaging, the DOHC is much much bigger).

While we're at it we can look at the frictional losses; why do you think DOHC V8's never compare to OHV ones in terms of power, torque and gas mileage. The more valves, lifters, springs and other associated parts you get the higher the frictional losses you find in the engine.

The problem with our motors is that no one had invested any real amount of money in making them any better for practically 2 decades!

Your argument of it being in a minivan is also...unusual given that toyota, honda, nissan (etc etc...) all use the same v6 engines from their cars in their minivans.

Why we're comparing an engine that is bordering on the 3 decade mark to ones that just came out is beyond me..

Back to the point, the death of the pushrod is not because they're necessarily bad engines, it's because we're seeing countries tax based on displacement. As long as there is a tax on displacement the pushrod engine in low performance applications cannot thrive. It doesn't make sense for GM (or any company) to have 2-3 lines of different V6's for 2-3 countries.

[Redog]

Basicly, it's to save money. Why put a more expensive 4T65 tranny in a car that is only programed to run at 170 HP / 200 Ft Lbs and pull a car around that weighs in at 3500 lbs (loaded up) max

Originally Posted by colonel6632

the 3.8l v6 in my cougar made less than 170. i think it was around 140, so my ecotec actually has more power

I had a Cougar with that engine also. piece of shit. Blew the motor at 92,000 miles, the replacement had 65,000 miles on it, which blew a week after it was dropped in, with another motor with 50,000 miles on it, which was getting ready to blow 11 months later

Originally Posted by Shiwnath

Yeah... But Ford wasnt any better than GM. At one point they were going to make the Ford Probe(which was designed by Mazda) the new Mustang, but alotta people didnt like the idea of a FWD Mustang that was Japanese designed.

That's why Ford is slightly better than GM. The Probe was going to be the new FWD Mustang. A peition was signed by over 250,000 thousand people. Ford LISTENED, and didn't brand that Mazda a Ford Mustang. How much money did Ford get in the bailout, oh that right ZERO!

Originally Posted by xXManwhoreXx

Yea my moms mini van had the same motor as the car I was trying to make decently fast..... Fail

Eric, you're a good kid, but you got to drop this ricer mindset. So the 3400 is also used in a minivan, so it's not fast? What? You really remind me of those people that have the "SBC" frame of mind and call the Olds motors junk and can't figure out why the timing is 20*

The 350Z has a 3.5 liter V6 engine, the same engine that is in the Infinti G35, the Maxima (which is a family sedan) and o yeah, the Quest. Last time I checked the Quest is a minivan. So I guess that means that the 350Z and the G35 can be made fast.

The 3400 motor was used in a lot of GM cars and vans in the early 00's and the design of the motor has been around since 1980. My 1991 GMC work truck I drove (was owned by the company) back in 1996-1998 had a 2.8 V6 60* V6 with a 5 speed manual tranny. That truck was FAST. Go on Summit Racing and see how many "go-fast" parts there are for that engine, including the one in mom's minivan.

Let's turn to Honda for a second. Which motor is in the Accord V6? Check under the hood of an Oddessy and find out

[colonel6632]

Originally Posted by Redog

I had a Cougar with that engine also. piece of shit. Blew the motor at 92,000 miles, the replacement had 65,000 miles on it, which blew a week after it was dropped in, with another motor with 50,000 miles on it, which was getting ready to blow 11 months later

agreed, worst motor ever

[xXManwhoreXx]

Originally Posted by Redog

Basicly, it's to save money. Why put a more expensive 4T65 tranny in a car that is only programed to run at 170 HP / 200 Ft Lbs and pull a car around that weighs in at 3500 lbs (loaded up) max



I had a Cougar with that engine also. piece of shit. Blew the motor at 92,000 miles, the replacement had 65,000 miles on it, which blew a week after it was dropped in, with another motor with 50,000 miles on it, which was getting ready to blow 11 months later



That's why Ford is slightly better than GM. The Probe was going to be the new FWD Mustang. A peition was signed by over 250,000 thousand people. Ford LISTENED, and didn't brand that Mazda a Ford Mustang. How much money did Ford get in the bailout, oh that right ZERO!




Eric, you're a good kid, but you got to drop this ricer mindset. So the 3400 is also used in a minivan, so it's not fast? What? You really remind me of those people that have the "SBC" frame of mind and call the Olds motors junk and can't figure out why the timing is 20*

The 350Z has a 3.5 liter V6 engine, the same engine that is in the Infinti G35, the Maxima (which is a family sedan) and o yeah, the Quest. Last time I checked the Quest is a minivan. So I guess that means that the 350Z and the G35 can be made fast.

The 3400 motor was used in a lot of GM cars and vans in the early 00's and the design of the motor has been around since 1980. My 1991 GMC work truck I drove (was owned by the company) back in 1996-1998 had a 2.8 V6 60* V6 with a 5 speed manual tranny. That truck was FAST. Go on Summit Racing and see how many "go-fast" parts there are for that engine, including the one in mom's minivan.

Let's turn to Honda for a second. Which motor is in the Accord V6? Check under the hood of an Oddessy and find out

Yea a odessy has a j35 however the j35 in and acura tl makes 305 hp?

And those motors are detuned in the minivan. But make close to 300 hp in the 350 and g35.

Our motors are the same shit in everything. So your logic fails.

Our motors aren't slow because they are in minivans, they are slow because they are slow.

[03glgold]

Originally Posted by xXManwhoreXx

Yea a odessy has a j35 however the j35 in and acura tl makes 305 hp?

And those motors are detuned in the minivan. But make close to 300 hp in the 350 and g35.

Our motors are the same shit in everything. So your logic fails.

Our motors aren't slow because they are in minivans, they are slow because they are slow.

How are you saying his logic fails...you proved the point that he was trying to make and then went and threw a totally different line of thinking in...I don't think he was saying the motors are slow because they are in minivans, however it did seem kinda like that was how you were talking about in the post he commented on

[zearchyo]

The motors/engines are slow bc they were made for late 1990s specs, back then those hp numbers were respectable/reasonable for the time frame. Take for an example the 5.0 mustang only made 225 hp in 1993 when now days a 4cylinder LNF engine found in turbo cobalt’s make more than that.

[TheEdgeofSanity]

I'm not asking why GM put a 170 hp engine in the alero, I am asking why they didn't put the 185 HP variant of the 3400 in the alero. I mean, if the impala could get a 185 HP 3400, why not give it to the alero to differentiate it from the malibu?

[Redog]

^^ Becasue the GA had the power because Pontaic is the "performance" side of GM

[DOHC_tuner]

I agree GM makes some pretty stupid decisions....like ive said before I swear a Nissan or Honda employee was working undercover and worked at GM. LOL

Seems like it but seriously GM needs to straiten up like Ford has these past couple years. Ford has some nice cars now.

Another thing I hate about GM is they seem to always phase out a model...they just plain give up and hope a new model name will help boost sells. This might have worked back in the hayday when they overcame Ford and the Model T but not nowadays.

[TheEdgeofSanity]

Originally Posted by Redog

^^ Becasue the GA had the power because Pontaic is the "performance" side of GM

then why didn't the GA get the 185 hp 3400? i mean, with that supposed 5 hp they get with the ram air intake, I am sure they could have claimed 190hp! haha