Problem! - Page 4

guiguilandry · 10-30-2008, 11:00 PM

if it would be an exhaust leak you would hear it... maybe get new boots for the plugs if the spring was messed up... Like I said before, there should be no difference because of the sensor location, as long has it gets all the flow of all the cylinders it should be ok.... cracked plugs, idi cover is a possibility...

[ion] C2 · 10-30-2008, 11:17 PM

yeah it happened the same day i swapped the coilpack housing to the new idi cover, maybe i screwed somethin up in it. i'm checkin plugs and the related components tomorrow.

cliff says he has a heated o2 that i could use. a lot of people suggested one or to move it closer to the head, i dunno.

might buy a new coilpack housing tomorrow... it seems like it's misfiring. sounds like it, acts like it, but coincidentally happened as soon as the header was put on... or when i swapped IDI covers and just didn't really pay attention.

hell it could even be a clogged or partially clogged injector. when i swapped fuel pressure gauges some teflon tape and/or paint could've fallen into the rail... lol. but again that'd be a hell of a coincidence to happen now.

CactusWill · 10-30-2008, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [ion] C2

cliff says he has a heated o2 that i could use. a lot of people suggested one or to move it closer to the head, i dunno.

Heated O2 sensors are oem for the car, so if you're using generic 'one size fits all' sensors, then they aren't the correct part... But even if that had anything to do with it, it would only be at cold starts, not when the engine is warm.

[ion] C2 · 10-30-2008, 11:51 PM

That's not what Cliff8928 said. He has a 4 wire upstream heated O2 from a V6 made to work with the stock 2 wire setup, you just run the other two wires to whatever power/ground to power the heater.

Supposedly even when the engine is "warmed up," since the O2 sensor is farther away with a header, it's not getting the right reading.

Who knows. I don't know wtf is wrong with this. Either plugs, coilpack, or fuel injector clogged. I'll replace the plugs tomorrow, ensure the boots and springs and such are good and connected right, and I guess pull the injectors and check for debris...

Sucks. Only thing we really changed here is the stock manifold to the header, and the O2 is farther away than stock. (Since we put the rear back in). Other than that, I changed engine covers the same day just before heading to Midas. Could've disrupted a failing coil pack or who the hell knows.

Cliff8928 · 10-31-2008, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [ion] C2

But now it's honestly not that far from where the collector is.. (This is the wideband, but the primary is on the other side, basically same spot)

That should be plenty close enough...

Quote:

Originally Posted by [ion] C2

might buy a new coilpack housing tomorrow... it seems like it's misfiring. sounds like it, acts like it, but coincidentally happened as soon as the header was put on... or when i swapped IDI covers and just didn't really pay attention.

I've seen those covers where they look perfect, but the car won't run worth a crap. They're usually around $50 and might even still be stocked at your local parts store.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CactusWill

Heated O2 sensors are oem for the car, so if you're using generic 'one size fits all' sensors, then they aren't the correct part... But even if that had anything to do with it, it would only be at cold starts, not when the engine is warm.

The 2.4 never got a heated upstream. The most it ever got was a 2-wire sensor with a signal and dedicated sensor ground. The other engines had 4 wire sensors though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by [ion] C2

That's not what Cliff8928 said. He has a 4 wire upstream heated O2 from a V6 made to work with the stock 2 wire setup, you just run the other two wires to whatever power/ground to power the heater.

The stock sensor should have two wires.

Pin
A - Tan - low signal (sensor ground)
B - Purple - signal

The V6 sensor has two additional pins.

C - Black - Ground (heater ground)
D - Brown - Ignition feed (heater power)

I guess you shouldn't change more than one thing at once

Oldsman · 10-31-2008, 07:55 AM

where you have the upstream should be just find. Soldering the wires for the upstream would be a good thing but won't fix your problem. Going to a heated O2 won't fix your problem either. More than likely I would change your coil pack and make sure you got new springs and boots. At that time check your plugs and when you put it back together take off that clamp for the fuel line and it will give some more room to get the IDI cover on a little more straighter.

this is the area i would concentrate on and not the header.

[ion] C2 · 10-31-2008, 08:44 AM

Sounds like a plan. The coil pack housing and boots/springs are sold at my local AutoZone. Changing plugs, coilpack, and boots/springs.

Duralast / Wireset
Part Number: 4YY

Duralast wells / Coil Pack Housing
Part Number: CB9

sburke · 10-31-2008, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [ion] C2

Sounds like a plan. The coil pack housing and boots/springs are sold at my local AutoZone. Changing plugs, coilpack, and boots/springs.

Duralast / Wireset
Part Number: 4YY
Duralast wells / Coil Pack Housing
Part Number: CB9

This IDI crap sucks. I've got the exact same problem with my car right now and I'm pretty sure this is why. Let us know if this changes anything for you.

Also, there used to be build information that let you run external coilpacks and run spark splug wires instead of the mess we currently have on this engine. Does anyone on here have the how to saved? I can't find it on the site.

sburke · 10-31-2008, 01:47 PM

[ion] C2 · 10-31-2008, 02:03 PM

I shouldn't need to do an MSD conversion to stop an issue.

I bought boots/springs but need to get to the AutoZone by my house, since they have the coilpack housing and the Murray's there has the plugs I like. Will be installing once I get them after work.

My Tenzo seats came in today too, they are NICE.

01OldsAleroGt · 10-31-2008, 02:05 PM

good luck on that man.. hope that fixes the issues your having

sburke · 10-31-2008, 03:20 PM

I know you don't have to change them, a lot of people have said that their car is better of when they do. Good luck with the new parts. Let us know how that works out. BTW Seats look awesome.

[ion] C2 · 10-31-2008, 03:34 PM

Someone suggested fuel pump, but I definitely have fuel and plenty at WOT. 48 psi at idle (as it should be). I read in the other thread the fuel pressure regulator can go bad, but I am pretty sure mine is good, as the pressure readings are as they should be, and when the hose is removed it hisses and the pressure goes up to what it's maximum is I believe.

It doesn't leak fuel as far as I can tell, but if it did it a bad FPR would explain poor fuel economy, running rough and such. I just moved the fuel pressure regulator to the new fuel rail last week, first time it's been removed and then reinstalled.

Eh, nah, I've been reading around:

Quote:

With the engine running, disconnect the vacuum hose from the pressure regulator. As a rule, fuel system pressure should increase 8 to 12 psi with the line disconnected. No change would indicate a faulty pressure regulator.

It does this. Holds pressure fine, regulates fine, I never run out of fuel.

A misfire would explain everything though so I'm hoping the boots/springs/coil pack housing/plugs fix it. If it's misfiring then the upstream O2 would remain on the rich side more often than before. The graph is jaggy but there's more little jaggies on the higher (richer) side of things when monitoring the upstream O2.

[ion] C2 · 11-01-2008, 03:25 PM

Reference my thread on j-body for relevant images and graphs and other members' suggestions.

SUMMARY

The only difference between when ithe car ran fine and now is I have a header (with the EGR tube) on a 2000 (non-EGR) engine with the 2000+ non-EGR gasket. The O2 location is farther than stock but not that far. It's just behind the collector, as seen above. Rear O2 is in and connected, behind the cat. The issue occured right after the header was installed, with my old (terrible looking) O2 sensor (whose wires were extended, soldered correctly to the same gauge wire). I replaced it with a BOSCH O2 sensor, and it acts the same.

Today I installed a new coil pack housing (coils inside looked fine), new spark plug boots/springs/things, new spark plugs (NGK TR6 as usual).

Absolutely no difference than when the header was put on. Takes about 40 seconds for the car to hit closed loop from being absolutely cold, that's fine. Seems to run fine in closed loop (AFRs 11-12). Once the car hits closed loop it starts pulling fuel, the STFT goes down to like - 22% until the car gets off the chart lean (18:1 ish) then the RPMs jump up and the STFT goes to 0 and the steadily drops way down negative again and the process repeats. After driving around a bit the idle switching of the O2 sensor ends up being super rapid, as seen above in the second graph. The fuel trims stay near zero. Sometimes it idles relatively smooth, other times it's a bit rough.

I don't get it. My fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator are great, it's not that. I don't run out of fuel whatsoever at WOT. Car doesn't seem as quick at WOT either, but who knows.

The only things I can think of is when removing the old manifold, one nut went crooked and pulled the whole stud out of the head.
- Nuts may not be making the header seal against the head properly
- Gasket is a two piece riveted metal thing, to me it seems like it there'd be a gap. I can see the gasket and a rivet or two looking down in the engine bay.
- The EGR tube in the 4th runner could be allowing exhaust gas from that runner to press against the non-EGR gasket and seep by, making an exhaust leak in that runner.

Help! This makes no sense, as usual.

Ghadsphi · 11-01-2008, 03:48 PM

Definatly I'm drunk and definatly I don't know enough. But most shops got a smoker so can't you try that? you're already drilling bungs (BTW I think this thread leads on that word without being funny)so if you drill in precat and flood it you should see any leaks in the the headers right?
If I remember right our smoke was UV sensitive. Course I took summer classes and the only car with any real problems was a drifter who left with his car and his engine in seperate vehicales and his licence still suspended in all countries lol

[ion] C2 · 11-01-2008, 03:58 PM

interesting

i was wondering how one would test that

misslindseysue · 11-01-2008, 04:02 PM

Pressure testing exhaust is easy - plug up the tailpipe and put a pressure gague in it. Put 3-4psi of compressed air in it and see if it holds. If they don't have Snoop use soapy water on all the connections to see if it bubbles. Foam is ok, bubbles are bad, generally.

[ion] C2 · 11-01-2008, 04:04 PM

i'd put soapy water on my header but it'll evap quick lol, bubbles could occur from heat

also wouldn't that pressurized air just escape through the cylinder head and out the intake? lol it's not like all the exhaust valves are shut

Ghadsphi · 11-01-2008, 04:17 PM

He's tried like 10 things I think he should smoke it. Get it eliminated. After some settleing I think I remember the smoke crossing the cat just fine... And thinking otherwise was just a dream.

[ion] C2 · 11-01-2008, 04:21 PM

it's only like 1 o'clock there why are you drunk already

speaking of dreams i had a dream last night i fixed it, and it was exhaust related, don't remember what, but then it ran amazingly and powerful