UPDATE rough idle 3400 V6 02 Alero

[Bens71442]

I did change the spark plugs 3000 miles ago.

Used Autolite Double Platinum pt# APP 606

IS the 3400 V6 Alero that susceptable to problems with double Platinum tipped spark plugs, in regards to waste spark?

Or is Heat the heat range of these type plugs that much of a difference to cause my cold start rough run.


More I analise this problem its starting to hit me that as the plugs warm up,
(yes after 3 minutes of run time) the missfire completely goes away.

Heat range issue related to change of sp type.

That on a warm engine, and restart, there is NO rough run.

Key here is after about 3 to 4 minutes of run time, the missfire stops completely and NO rough run.

I'm going to inspect plugs tomorrow morning and reinstall the ac delcos, that are like $6.99/plug and see what happens

[Redog]

That could be the problem.

Heat range is a big problem sometimes. I put the 455 Olds plugs in my 350 Olds and had problems. Corrected it and no problems at all. Of course they were only $2 a plug.

I ran Auotlites for about 30,000 miles, until the #3 plug literly popped out of the head

[CactusWill]

Autolites are quality plugs, they are the equivalent of motorcraft and made factory ford plugs for many years. If you're going to use em tho, you need to use the regular ass ones, not the exotic bullshit gimmicky ones.

[Bens71442]

OK, about an hour from now, I'm going to start the Alero with the AC Delco Iridiums I bought..... AC Pt# 41-101 gaped at 60 thou

I'll update you all with the results.....

car has been sittin all night and the temp is mid 40's in Detroit area......

lots of dew on the car and its frickin cold on top of it all.

6.99/Plug even with my discout it was over 30 dollars for a set.@

[Nate's Alero]

the iridums are great. sounds like the issue i had, only in reverse, mine would run fine cold, and miss when hot

[Bens71442]

This morning, I started the 3400V6 Alero, NO rough Idle now.

Changed APP 606 Auto lite Double Platinums out and reinstalled

AC Delco 41-101 Iridium plugs and cold started this morning......no problems now...

heading out to the gym in a few minutes now, engine should be nice and cold again, its been sitting for over 4 hours since I last drove it.

How is it possible that after 2500 miles since Double platinum AUtolites installed that all of a sudden it gave me a cold idle rough run?

Just to let all of you know, When I put the double platinum Autolites in there a month and a 1/2 ago around mid-august....I had NO issues whatsoever until late last week.

IN fact after removing the cars original plugs at 75k miles, and installing Auto lite APP 606's I had increased power and NO rough cold start issues whatsoever.

Its got the $6.99/plug Iridium AC Delcos in it now. about to try second cold start refire in a few minutes.....

--Ben

[Nate's Alero]

DIs waste spark systems mess em up...bad

[meadus101]

I've never ran any kind of plug but NGK in my life. in everything, Lawnmowers, my bike, My ATV, Snowmobile.


until a couple years ago, I thought only NGK made spark plugs.

[CactusWill]

Its been said on this site many times to not use aftermarket platinum plugs for the 3400, especially the extra tipped ones like you had. Use the factory OEM plugs or equivalent if manufactured by another brand like NGK does for AC Delco. Theres lots and lots of motors out there that dont' respond well to random aftermarket plugs.

[cherrington17]

Originally Posted by meadus101

I've never ran any kind of plug but NGK in my life. in everything, Lawnmowers, my bike, My ATV, Snowmobile.


until a couple years ago, I thought only NGK made spark plugs.

for the 2.2/2.4 NOT the 3.4

only use AC delcos on the 3400

[Bens71442]

Its Not the plugs, and I just put in new wires........

It WAS NOT the Autolite Double Platinums and they were not fouled at all when I pulled all six of them to switch them to the Iridium AC Delcos.

I have never had any problem with Autolites in a 3.1 V6 or this 3400

My problem remains, with Iridium AC's in there

continuing diagnoses..... will check fuel pressure next week.

continues to miss fire cold for 3-4 minutes and goes away after this time elapses.

IAC valve is suspect, so is fuel pump and egr NO codes or ses lights

[AleroB888]

Originally Posted by Bens71442

Its Not the plugs, and I just put in new wires........

It WAS NOT the Autolite Double Platinums and they were not fouled at all when I pulled all six of them to switch them to the Iridium AC Delcos.

I have never had any problem with Autolites in a 3.1 V6 or this 3400

My problem remains, with Iridium AC's in there

continuing diagnoses..... will check fuel pressure next week.

continues to miss fire cold for 3-4 minutes and goes away after this time elapses.

IAC valve is suspect, so is fuel pump and egr NO codes or ses lights

Are you actually measuring misfires, or throwing any codes?

Both my Aleros idle somewhat rough cold for a couple minutes at start up. Depending on the year model, the idle rpm vs run time vs timing advance differs a bit, I think the early models are smoother.

[Bens71442]

This problem began totally out of the blue.....

after zero problems with Autolite APP 606's, late last week began a cold start miss fire.....

yes......... today after starting it in heavy rain and cold windy conditions (all night rain very damp outside) heavy missfiring and flashing service engine soon light.

got to work (one mile down the road) miss fire gone. (check engine light turned off.

History code showed cylinder No. 1 missfire on scan tool (I work at Advance Auto parts)

Note: I do notice a longer than normal cranking time on the car, and this started at the same time the cold rough idle started, so add that to the list: Long crank and a sloppy start.

I replace plug wires 1 and 3 (as these were the only two plug wires that seperated when I tried to remove the (cemented) plug boots from the original ac delco Iridiums in this car, 2200 miles ago.

I very carferfully repaired these two wires (back then) and now replaced those two today when I got to work.

MIss fire still there when I got off at 9:30 and longer tha usual crank to start.

cleared 2 minutes later 1 minute before I pulled in my driveway. (I work very close to the home .9 of a mile. same longer than usual crank over before start!

Plug wires (the remainder of them are in excellent condition)

This is not a damp run wet plug wire issue as it did this dry as a bone....I'm beginning to think fuel pump or egr stuck or a bad iac valve......

It seems to be acting like a lean missfire. And it Did start when the weather got cold out here north of Detroit.....we've been having colder weather here and it seems like this started as soon as it got cold outside.

The (6) APP 606's I pulled out two days ago were NOT fouled in any way....ALL 6 were ashen colored white and the residue was very light at that: what I expected them to look like with 2500 miles on them.

I installed the AC Delco iridiums, and at the point I installed them (two days ago) I did not encounter the rough run problem....until today when it came back with a vengence ....

check engine light read cylinder one missfire....and not random cylinder missfires.

So I changed no's 1 and 3 wires with excellent quality autolite sp wires

car still has the missfire.

I want to check fuel psi next but I have to find someone with a gauge set to do this.....

what a royal p-i-t-a this is

[AleroB888]

If it's isolated to the #1 cylinder, I wonder if an injector could be at fault. It seems as if a bad fuel pump or IAC would get random misfires. I don't know, possibly an intake gasket leak. If you have a programmer, you could try skewing the injector flow rate of the #1 cylinder.

But the SES light clears itself? No excessively high Long Term Fuel Trims at idle after warm up? There are a lot of possible causes. Even a TPS or MAF, if the #1 cylinder is a little weaker than the others.

[-Alero-]

head gasket is a possability as well

[Bens71442]

Low coolant light finally popped on 3 days ago.....

bingo found the problem

I forgot to mention thsi 3400 Alero still has its original intake gasket....

its going in today for a intake, and hopefully thats all it is.

Yes, a head gasket is a strong possibility but due to the wonderful nature of the 3400 engineering in regards to the Type of coolant used, and materials used in the intake gasket, we'll start there first.

I'm hopeing for a intake and not a head gasket, but since this is a 3400 and the failure rate of intake gaskets is something like u'mmmm 100 fk'n percent we'll look to find a blown intake and hopefully not a head gasket.

This is the 2nd 60 degree V6 I have owned, a 3.1 in a 1996 Supreme did the same thing three years ago.

I'm no longer surprised GM filed for bankruptcy in 2009. This is EXACTLY why they are not selling cars.

I hope the engineer who designed the intake gasket reads this post.

I wonder how he can sleep at night, knowing that the 100 of Thousands if not a million 3.1 and 3400 have this problem with that assaine dexcool antifreeze and Plastic intake gaskets.

Its NO different than a Cadillac 4100 V8 in my eyes!

I wonder if GM gets the picture, or not, we'll see now that Obama had to bail them out.


GM is giving me 72 dollars -back- from a drivers door water deflector repair i had done last week on the alero at the beginning of the cold start missfire problem.

I had rain water pouring into my drivers side rear floor board every time it rained.

found the TSB Bulletin i think on Alero mod, (I can't remember) and instructed the delaer to make this repair, which WAS the problem. Thinking I would be spared a 1 hour diagnosis fee.

It WAS the water deflector, the actual part is called for being replaced on the TSB but its on National Back order because so many of them fail, this is why I coudl not order a new water deflector, but they can be re-glued I guess, thats what was doen to fix that problem.

I started another file on the intake gasket with GM too see what they are going to do with this one.

BTW the delaer wants $900 dollars to do an intake gasket!!!! Makes me want to run out the door and buy another GM product doesn't it! that like adding another year of payments to my 2002 GMAC fiananced 02 Alero. Price at the Chevy Dealers used car lot one year ago was $8995. I sure got a steal on it hey!!!!! I'm sorry I didn't get an extended warranty but leave it to me to being a loyal GM customer....

I'll let everyone know if the intake was the problem once I get it in the shop.

[Bens71442]

A new 540 dollar intake job did NOT fix the cold start issue......

we are monitoring coolant level now very closely

have not ruled out a head gasket.

never had an ongoing problem that has even has a top notch ASE certified guy who has done a million intakes on 3400 V6 engines and is Highly reputable kinda stumpted....

I'll update you all again if coolant level starts droping again.

[brim]

hrmm... maybe some type of vacuum leak going on or an iac sticking or something due to the cold. Hopefully not a head gasket, but you'd notice that stumble at all times if it were that bad, the 0-20 stutter would give it away if it was just the one cylinder.

Originally Posted by Bens71442

Its Not the plugs, and I just put in new wires........

It WAS NOT the Autolite Double Platinums and they were not fouled at all when I pulled all six of them to switch them to the Iridium AC Delcos.

I have never had any problem with Autolites in a 3.1 V6 or this 3400

My problem remains, with Iridium AC's in there

continuing diagnoses..... will check fuel pressure next week.

continues to miss fire cold for 3-4 minutes and goes away after this time elapses.

IAC valve is suspect, so is fuel pump and egr NO codes or ses lights

[bkathsalero]

Document ID: 2240936
#PIP3146C: Crank No Start Rough Idle Or Misfire When
Cold Due To Compression Loss - keywords cylinder DTC
engine hard head lifter loss low MIL miss no noise
nostart P0300 rattle repeat rough run start tick valve -
(Feb 26, 2009)
This PI was superseded to update model years. Please discard PIP3146B.
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:
Crank no start when cold. The engine may crank over very fast, as if there is low/no compression.
It may also run rough for up to 5 minutes after starting the engine and may exhibit a P0300 DTC
too. This may be caused by sticking valves due to fuel contamination. When the engine is cold, the
compression on multiple cylinders may be at 0 PSI. The engine also may pop through the intake or
exhaust while cranking and the spark plugs may be fuel fouled when inspected. Some engines may
also experience valve damage or cam followers that are out of position as a result of this.
This condition will normally occur in specific areas of the country for a period of time and then it
will no longer occur after the suspect fuel source has been consumed in that area of the country.
This PI pertains to all engine sizes and RPO's listed below:
Sizes:
1.0 1.3 1.4 1.6 1.8 1.9 2.0 2.2 2.4 2.5 2.6 3.0 3.1 3.2 3.4 3.5 3.6 3.8 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 4.6 4.8 5.0
5.3 5.7 6.0 7.4 8.1
RPOs:
L01 L18 L24 L26 L29 L30 L31 L32 L34 L35 L36 L37 L42 L43 L47 L52 L59 L61 L65 L67 L81 L95 LA1
LA3 LB8 LC3 LD8 LD9 LE8 LF6 LG3 LG8 LH2 LH3 LK5 LL0 LL8 LLT LM4 LM7 LN2 LNK LP2 LQ4 LQ9
LR4 LSJ LS1 LS6 LU3 LV6 LW9 LX5 LX9 LY8 LY7 LY9
Recommendation/Instructions:
Subject: Crank No Start Rough Idle or Misfire when Cold due to
Compression Loss
Models: 2000-2009 All Passenger Cars with Gasoline Engines
2000-2009 All Light Duty Trucks with Gasoline Engines
© 2009 General Motors Corporation. All rights reserved.
3/4/2009 http://gsi.xw.gm.com/si/showDoc.do?d...240936&from=nb
If the SI Diagnosis leads to a compression loss due to sticking valves, the following information
may help:
If there is no sign of valve damage or cam followers that are out of place, perform the following
procedure to free up sticking valves and to prevent the valves from sticking again. If valve damage
is present or if there are cam followers that are out of place, perform engine mechanical repairs as
necessary to correct the concern and then perform the procedure below to prevent the valves from
sticking again.
1. Clean the fuel system by following the applicable "Fuel System Cleaning" procedure outlined
in SI.
2. Add fuel injector cleaner "GM Fuel System Treatment PLUS, P/N 88861011 (for U.S.
ACDelco®, use 88861013) (in Canada, 88861012)"... see bulletin # 05-00-89-078A, to the
fuel tank in the approved quantities.
3. Refill the fuel tank using fuel from a high volume, high quality filling station.
4. Clean the induction system using GM Top Engine Cleaner. Follow the directions on the can
but DO NOT force the engine to stall since forcing the engine to stall with liquid Top Engine
Cleaner could cause the engine to hydro-lock.
5. Advise the customer to change fuel filling stations. They should use fuel from only high
volume, high quality filling stations or they should use a Top Tier Detergent Gasoline if
available. See 04-06-04-047F (U.S.) or 05-06-04-022B (Canada) for details regarding Top
Tier Detergent Gasolines.
Note: If the condition is not eliminated chemically, it may be necessary to remove the valves to
manually clean the stems.
Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition
exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be
performed.
Page 2 of 2 Document ID: 2240936