ecu upgrade???

have any of you tried an Apex S-AFC or similar product? A lil piggyback air/fuel computer mixed w/ some MSD goodness goes a long way. And it DOES work.
It won't remove your speed limiter or raise your rev points, but it'll definitely help you fine tune your setup.

I don't want to start anything bad over this post, but I dont know if you guys read any of the other boards like the gagt.com but there have been some fights over dhp and this is just my take on them.

I had a 98 gagt with the 3100 and i went up to detroit with a bunch of guys and I had the first 98 to have their ecu put in and essentially i was the gunnei pig. Once again this is just my opinion and i don't want to make anyone mad. As for a company I think they are terrible and i wouldn't reccomend anyone getting something from them.

They were completely disorganized, They only gave my car 3 pulls before they said the had gotten everything out of my car that they could. All that their reprogram did was remove my speed limiter and reset my fan to run for two minutes after the car was off. As for horse power gains they said i gained 3 wheel horsepower, but on my original pull i had a big cough in my horsepower curve and when the fixed the curve i actually ended up losing one horse. As for their product i personally think they didn't deliver on what they had said they were going to.

As for their behavior I don't think they were professional because they spent half the day taking breaks and driving around. When they were doing the pulls and reprogramming they spent more time on people that had more mods than people that didn't so some of their information will not be friendly to stock cars. For example 3 of the 5 99+ ga's that they tested were heavily modified, two having headers and cat back exhaust systems, and one being supercharged.

As for their ability I think that they do have the ability to produce a good product because when working on the more modified cars they were able to get good numbers out of them. For example the superchargned ga went from I believe, but don't quote me 185hp to 205hp.

Once again this is just my opinion I don't want to start a fight i am just trying to help.

[Fast Eddie]

Originally posted by Spy@Mar 16 2004, 05:12 PM
have any of you tried an Apex S-AFC or similar product? A lil piggyback air/fuel computer mixed w/ some MSD goodness goes a long way. And it DOES work.
It won't remove your speed limiter or raise your rev points, but it'll definitely help you fine tune your setup.

From what I heard you don't want to go with a MAP spoofer, but I read that on the internet, so take it at that.

Also the MSD on our engines is a waste of money unless you get serious flow through that bad boy (ie tons a boost) since the coil DIS setup is plenty hot enough.

[springs fastest alero]

BeigeAlero, I've tested a few computer cuips before with a friend for a beretta
some of the chips may of had a gain at peak numbers but lost power lower in the band. we also noticed the closer to stock the car was the less it would gain from a chip. dhp will tell you this too.
This is prolly why I've just recently stepped up to a computer.
after noticing what most places do I've decided to skip the whole hp and tq side of the tunning
they are firming up my trans, pulling the speed limiter and a few things for the t-stat and rev limit.

other than that I'm getting the iccu to do the rest of the tunning.
last time I tunned my car we spent 2 hrs on the dyno doing a total of 24 passes.
(I'm anal about this stuff)
it was a ton of trial and error but I was able to learn lots about my car.
also a tunning company will not go as radical as I may go just for reliabillity issues and safty.

more power could of been seen but maybe not at a safe level. also dhp does a ton of mid band work that most dont.
I've noticed they look at the whole curve and not jut peak numbers.
honestly I dont think there is a tune that will ever hold up to my standards.
mainly because I want the adjustibillity since I'm always making changes to my car.

[Fast Eddie]

Originally posted by Fast Eddie+Mar 17 2004, 02:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fast Eddie @ Mar 17 2004, 02:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Spy@Mar 16 2004, 05:12 PM
have any of you tried an Apex S-AFC or similar product? A lil piggyback air/fuel computer mixed w/ some MSD goodness goes a long way. And it DOES work.
It won't remove your speed limiter or raise your rev points, but it'll definitely help you fine tune your setup.

From what I heard you don't want to go with a MAP spoofer, but I read that on the internet, so take it at that.

Also the MSD on our engines is a waste of money unless you get serious flow through that bad boy (ie tons a boost) since the coil DIS setup is plenty hot enough. [/b][/quote]
Also the problem with a MAP spoofer is it would not tell you when you are close to 85% duty cycle (the most you would want to try and put an injector to) Also you may very easily run off the fuel curve if you have enough boost or just wanna dump tons of fuel into the cyl. for some reason.

Originally posted by Fast Eddie+Mar 18 2004, 03:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fast Eddie @ Mar 18 2004, 03:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Fast Eddie@Mar 17 2004, 02:13 PM

From what I heard you don't want to go with a MAP spoofer, but I read that on the internet, so take it at that.

Also the MSD on our engines is a waste of money unless you get serious flow through that bad boy (ie tons a boost) since the coil DIS setup is plenty hot enough.

Also the problem with a MAP spoofer is it would not tell you when you are close to 85% duty cycle (the most you would want to try and put an injector to) Also you may very easily run off the fuel curve if you have enough boost or just wanna dump tons of fuel into the cyl. for some reason.

Also the MSD on our engines is a waste of money unless you get serious flow through that bad boy (ie tons a boost) since the coil DIS setup is plenty hot enough.

[/b][/quote]
Too many people have gotten good things out of an S-AFC for it not to be considered by you guys in simple tuning.

The part w/ the injectors. Honestly that problem is easily avoided when you know what type of injectors you're running and run a simple calculation here and there knowing when they will max out, so to speak.

It's also very beneficial if you're running larger injectors, so you can tune them down at idle as to not run stupid rich before you get into your sweet spot.

I honestly don't see big red flag cons with this product.

Than again if it's not made for a 2.4L or plug n play you guys tend to not fool with things.

The MSD is a great device and is not only JUST for increasing spark. The other capabilities such as timing retard, and a two step limiter are definitely worth it.

[Fast Eddie]

Just posting what I've heard. The apexi is about as plug and play as you can get, what like tap two wires and splice 3, easier than the DRL override kit. I'm in the process of building and then will tune my own FMU for another car and researching what it would take to carry that over to the alero. So I'm not really afraid to leave the realm of plug and play :P

Unless you have access to the stock fuel maps then you cannot know the exact length of the pulse width for firing the injectors, period. You can get a decent guess of the injector pulse but do not know exactly how long the PCM is firing the injectors for since you are only modifiying the input to the PCM and the PCM, not the apexi, is what controls the injectors. To know the exact pulse width you need to have access to the fuel maps and the apexi just doesn't have that. If you want to try it let us know how it works. I'm not dissing the product just pointint out some possible issues. I've seen some of the gains so I'd like to know what kinda gains can be made with it on the 2.4.

As for the MSD, the 2.4 actually benefits from more advance in its NA form, so you only need the retard if you are FI or running N2O, IMHO. as for the rev limit yeah its nice but I can easily look at the tach on the dash and see what I'm launching at and save $350. plus the stock pcm stops you on the top end. I'm not saying that the MSD isn't great (i've got three other cars with 'em) its just not needed for most DIS NA applications.

Just my $.02 here, but I've dealt with modding engines from cars (low RPM) and motorcycles (high RPM). The deal with adding "chips" to a system is really not a deal at all. Yes, _sometimes_ you see gains...but these chips are just masking "problems/features" in the original computer. Just like a TPS mod does, the MAP mods simply fool the engine's air-flow sensors.

On the flip side, a well programmed system would realise this was bogus, because there is an O2 sensor in the exhaust system that would be reading lean (more air than fuel). Now, while this would be okay if you were using a dry N2O system (sorta), it's not good for a stock setup. This is why you see better returns from a heavily modded engine.

I've got to say, I like the MegaSquirt idea. I like the UltraMegaSquirt (sounds like Ultra-Mega-Mega-Man from south park) idea even more. _Replacing_ the management systems with a customized one is the best solution, because it can grow with your mods.

Either way, there are other limiting factors to your engine's performance. The biggest issues to be addressed are the valves, injectors, pumps, throttle body, manifolds, and exhaust. If these are restrictive, your engine performance suffers. As an example, if your intake valves can only handle a certain amount of "flow", then that is the bottleneck in the system. The same goes for the exhaust valves...power is robbed from the engine cycle by requiring the engine to "force" gasses into or out of the engine. Of course, addressing these issues is rather costly, so we add things like N2O or boost to mask the real problem.

So, what's my solution? I say we all just trade in our cars, and get vehicles powered by rotary engines. :thumbsup: No? Well, you can't blame me for trying.

Tom Cameron
Alero Owner since 1999

[Fast Eddie]

hell no rotaties require even more tuning, time, and money than normal engines. Can't just stroke it, bore it, and add huge valves. takes lots of time and patience, forget that, turbines are the way to go, LOL.

The UMS won't be out til probably next fall, the schematices can't even be released until the silicon comes out, hopefully May. The biggest problem with it is NOT throwing a damn SES light as if that weren't enough on the auto's there is the whole issue of the tranny needing input from things like the CKP for engine RPM, the VSS for vehicle speed and who knows what else. Putting it on any OBD-II vehicle looks to be a real PITA, hell just the fuel side is turning into a real nightmare, let alone trying out how to figure out the ignition side. And then to make sure the tranny still works and the dash don't look like a christmas tree.

Hmm I think I know what I want for my birthday

[AndysGX]

Originally posted by drdabbles@Mar 26 2004, 07:17 PM


So, what's my solution? I say we all just trade in our cars, and get vehicles powered by rotary engines. :thumbsup: No? Well, you can't blame me for trying.

No thanks. I don't like blown apex seals. :thumbsup: