Too acurate for my own good?

[Daytona]

Another crappy day at the track today. Went out 3rd round due to a double-breakout with me going under (while on the brakes) by more than my opponent. Was hoping to make up some ground in the points standings this week but that didn't happen. I might be tied for 9th or 10th now in the standings - far lower than I had hoped to be at this point in the season.

Kenny didn't fare any better, going out 1st round on a breakout. But I'll let Redog bitch about his own day. Right now it's Me! Me! Me!

Treed my opponent (0.013 vs 0.034) and had him at the stripe, but broke out even though I was on the brakes. This is the 3rd time in 4 races that happened. My car is dead-on round after round and then out of the blue it pulls something out of its ass which kills me. There are fewer ducks out there on an average points day, with more of the guys signed up for Points being active racers. And I'm holding my own mano-a-mano against some of the better guys in the class when we get paired up. But when I should win I lose and I can't figure out why I'm getting some of the bad bounces of luck.

Decided to do a little math and it astounded me...

My average winning Reaction Time this season (RT for all elimination rounds that I won) = 0.0594 seconds.
My average losing non-red RT = 0.019 seconds!!!

I lost 1 round this season via a rare red light, but I don't know how to reflect that in the average without skewing the numbers incorrectly, hence averaging just the losing green lights.

How the hell am I cutting 0.009, 0.013, and 0.036 lights and LOSING, yet when I have a worse average RT I WIN?!?!?

The car's dead-on most rounds and I'm pretty consistent on the tree, yet I'm doing better the worse my lights are. Granted, I did have wins with 0.021 and 0.016 lights, but overall I'm fairing better with worse RT's than that.

Defies all logic. I know I've got tougher competition - or should I say more even competition spread out across more racers vs. in previous years where there were maybe 10 guys I really had to worry about in the class plus some other decent talent - but this runs counter-intuitive to all of that.

GAAAHHHH!!!!!

Next Points Day is in 2 weeks....

[[ion] C2]

what do you run anyway in the quarter mile

[jackal2000]

get good.

[AleroB888]

Originally Posted by Daytona

Another crappy day at the track today. Went out 3rd round due to a double-breakout with me going under (while on the brakes) by more than my opponent.
..............................................Tree d my opponent (0.013 vs 0.034) and had him at the stripe, but broke out even though I was on the brakes. This is the 3rd time in 4 races that happened.
.............Decided to do a little math and it astounded me...

My average winning Reaction Time this season (RT for all elimination rounds that I won) = 0.0594 seconds.
My average losing non-red RT = 0.019 seconds!!!

.........................How the hell am I cutting 0.009, 0.013, and 0.036 lights and LOSING, yet when I have a worse average RT I WIN?!?!?

The car's dead-on most rounds and I'm pretty consistent on the tree, yet I'm doing better the worse my lights are. Granted, I did have wins with 0.021 and 0.016 lights, but overall I'm fairing better with worse RT's than that.

Defies all logic. ......................

I don't have an answer, may have a theory.... but could you post a summary of the runs with RT /60 ft / ET / mph / Dial ? (note if hit brakes, broke out, etc.)

All yout RT's are very good in any case, close enough for many other variables to come into play....

[Daytona]

Time slips are out in the car right now, but I can tell you that, weather-dependent, the Daytona's anywhere between 16.6 and 17.0 and will stay there all day. Bone stock 3.0L Mitsubishi motor installed at the factory. 181K miles on her.

And just a little background on my experience here: Been racing Points at RP since 1987 and won the Points Title back in 1990. Took a few years off after that to work on the car ('77 Camaro) and work directly for the track. Then came back in 1997 and have had some good success since then, finishing in the Top 8 seven out of nine seasons (didn't run a full schedule in 2000). In 2001 I switched from the Camaro to the Daytona and finished the '03 season 2 points away from my 2nd title.

I've seen a lot of good and bad bounces and can usually explain away a lot of stuff, but this year's got me scratching my head because the differences. Yesterday, for example, my incrementals (again the slips are out in the car but I remember the basics) 3rd round ran a quicker 60' but slower #'s the rest of the way to 1000' (compared to the previous 2 rounds & 2 Time Trials) but then quicker again past 1000'. Even though I was on the brakes at the finish line I was able to calculate what my non-braking ET should have been that run and the numbers worked out to be SLOWER than what I actually ran on the brakes! A good friend of mine was racing his alcohol-powered dragster in Super ET and he, too, was getting weird numbers - he'd be slower 1st half and quicker top end one round and then quicker off the line and slower top end the next yet end up with the same ET's (or close to it).

AleroB888 - You want the entire season's runs? Or just yesterday's? I do make note of vehicle weight, engine temp, launch RPM, how Deep I stage, if I'm on the brakes at the end, if there's wheel hop/wheel spin/engine bog off the line, amount of gas in the tank (FWD cars like mine run better with 1/8-to-3/8 tank of gas to keep the weight bias over the front wheels), etc.

I'd be very curious as to what your theory is. Thanks.

[[ion] C2]

Originally Posted by Daytona

Bone stock 3.0L Mitsubishi motor installed at the factory. 181K miles on her.

Wahoo, I have 182K miles on the Alero, and seven pounds of boost.

[AleroB888]

Originally Posted by Daytona

Time slips are out in the car right now, but I can tell you that, weather-dependent, the Daytona's anywhere between 16.6 and 17.0 and will stay there all day...............

3rd round ran a quicker 60' but slower #'s the rest of the way to 1000' (compared to the previous 2 rounds & 2 Time Trials) but then quicker again past 1000'. Even though I was on the brakes at the finish line I was able to calculate what my non-braking ET should have been that run and the numbers worked out to be SLOWER than what I actually ran on the brakes! A good friend of mine was racing his alcohol-powered dragster in Super ET and he, too, was getting weird numbers - he'd be slower 1st half and quicker top end one round and then quicker off the line and slower top end the next yet end up with the same ET's (or close to it).
..........You want the entire season's runs? Or just yesterday's?......

Just the previous 10 to look at, or the most recent that got the "weird numbers"...

My usual problem is running over the dial-in.....

[2fst4u]

i don't mean to be offense at all, but why would you run a car that is in the 17's in the quarter mile. i don't even think that would be fun to me. i'd probably get bored. but, i guess it probably has to do more with strategy than speed though.

[AleroB888]

Originally Posted by 2fst4u

i don't mean to be offense at all, but why would you run a car that is in the 17's in the quarter mile. i don't even think that would be fun to me. i'd probably get bored. but, i guess it probably has to do more with strategy than speed though.

Change your perspective -- the only thing out there that is fast is Top Fuel, period. Everything else is slow. It is stupid to start arguing about "14's are slow, "no, 12's are slow" etc...


It is all about knowing/ predicting exactly what your car will do, and maintaining it to stay consistent.

[Daytona]

Originally Posted by 2fst4u

i don't mean to be offense at all, but why would you run a car that is in the 17's in the quarter mile. i don't even think that would be fun to me. i'd probably get bored. but, i guess it probably has to do more with strategy than speed though.

Bracket Racing is all about strategy, driver skill, and knowing how your car will react to changes in weather & track conditions. It has ABSOLUTELY ZERO to do with how fast the car is. I've seen plenty of guys with a ton of money buy themselves something fast thinking that's all it takes, only to lose every single race because they can't drive worth a crap & they can't get any consistency out of the car.

I am just as consistent with my high 16-second FWD Daytona as I was with my low 12-second RWD Camaro. The Daytona's just a lot cheaper to maintain. And if I have just as good a chance to win with a slow car as I do with a fast one, then why keep investing a ton of money if I don't have to?

I've run some seriously quick "street" cars for years (mine and friends'). While it's nice to occassionally run a car and see just how fast you can possibly get it to go, I've been there - done that - bought the book. If I'm spending an entire day at the track, I'd rather compete now win races based on skill and consistency.

It requires totally different technique getting the head start and trying to judge margins at the finish line when your opponent is flying up on you @ 105-110 mph vs. your 81 mph, than it does to run one of the faster cars in the class against slower competition & judging when to let off as you catch up to someone near the stripe. Starting line strategy is different, too, when you're worrying about cutting a good light without going red first vs. sitting there for a 5- or 6-second count after the other car leaves before your lights come down.

[01silveralero]

its harder to keep faster cars running consistent though.........there is little to none variables with slower cars or less moded cars

[Redog]

^^ Not true.

My day sucked. I decied to dial according to spinning the wheels past the 60 foot mark. Of course I lost about 2 seconds off my ET in doing that to begin with. I just cannot get traction.

So with spinning the tires hard, I'm running between 16.9 and 17.4 (should be running about 15.4 ) So I dial at 16.9, spin the tires hard again, at least I thought it was harder than normal, tach hit 5000 before I fianlly get traction but it didn't shift into 2nd gear while spinning like it has been. I get hard on the brakes at the top end, but too late and cross the finish line at 16.7 @ 82.00

I'm running with no spare and jack and 1/4 tank of gas. Next time I'm running with a full tank and maybe the jack and spare. I was without 18.2 gallons of gas, which equals a little more than 108 lbs and I know the jack and spare weigh in at 50 lbs. The front of the car weighs 2328 and the rear weighs 1680. Total weight of the car is 4028 with a 1/4 tank (numbers might not total up, the scale isn't perfect) I figure the car will weigh 4186 with both the spare and full tank. All that weight will be in the rear of the car (1680 to 1838). The extra 150 lbs should only take .15 off my ET, but 15.55 is better than 17

[01silveralero]

Originally Posted by Redog

^^ Not true.

My day sucked. I decied to dial according to spinning the wheels past the 60 foot mark. Of course I lost about 2 seconds off my ET in doing that to begin with. I just cannot get traction.

So with spinning the tires hard, I'm running between 16.9 and 17.4 (should be running about 15.4 ) So I dial at 16.9, spin the tires hard again, at least I thought it was harder than normal, tach hit 5000 before I fianlly get traction but it didn't shift into 2nd gear while spinning like it has been. I get hard on the brakes at the top end, but too late and cross the finish line at 16.7 @ 82.00

I'm running with no spare and jack and 1/4 tank of gas. Next time I'm running with a full tank and maybe the jack and spare. I was without 18.2 gallons of gas, which equals a little more than 108 lbs and I know the jack and spare weigh in at 50 lbs. The front of the car weighs 2328 and the rear weighs 1680. Total weight of the car is 4028 with a 1/4 tank (numbers might not total up, the scale isn't perfect) I figure the car will weigh 4186 with both the spare and full tank. All that weight will be in the rear of the car (1680 to 1838). The extra 150 lbs should only take .15 off my ET, but 15.55 is better than 17

how do u figure 15.4????????? all sites i can find say u should only be passing at high 70 and low 80 which isnt no 15 sec pass.

[Midgear]

holy crap, our cars weigh alot

[01silveralero]

Originally Posted by Midgear

holy crap, our cars weigh alot

he's not talking about the alero

alero's Curb Weight: 3060 lbs. give or take 100 depending on year engine blah blah

delta is between 3500-3600lbs curb weight

in order words redog's talking about the delta not the alero

[Daytona]

Originally Posted by 01silveralero

its harder to keep faster cars running consistent though.........there is little to none variables with slower cars or less moded cars

Not true at all. A finely tuned race car is just as consistent as a non-modded street car, sometimes even more so as evidenced by all of the fast Points cars who run dead on the number every Sunday at RP (and, yes, many of them are 100% street legal). The problem here with your theory is that a majority of the folks you see who "modify" their cars are just dropping in some go-fast goodies and don't have a real clue as to what they're really doing and they aren't fine-tuning anything accurately. And street cars can get just as inconsistent as faster cars when the weather doesn't cooperate, the driver's an idiot, or the engine computer gets tricked into affecting the power band one way or the other.

What affects our "stock" Aleros, Daytonas, Cobalts, etc? Humidity, ambient air temp., traction, relative altitude, engine temp, transmission temp., launch rpm, vehicle weight, engine wear, & tire wear. All of these will affect both shift points - whether you manually shift them or let the car do it on its own - and power.

What affects modified cars? See above list.

Computerized F.I. cars are more affected by humidity than non-computerized carburated cars. Our cars will slow down much more in the dead of summer than Ken's Delta or a '77 Camaro would. My old Camaro ran more consistent times across the entire season than my Daytona, which is affected by the seasonal changes in temp and humidity, though on any given day both cars were just as consistent.

Oh, and, my stock Daytona? She'll still spin her tires, too, at launch if I launch too high relative to the current weather/track conditions or don't have the right tire pressure set in the fronts.

Originally Posted by 01silveralero

how do u figure 15.4????????? all sites i can find say u should only be passing at high 70 and low 80 which isnt no 15 sec pass.

His Delta has run in the 15's before. Based on the weather conditions Sunday I'd say that his guesstimate on non-spin ET is probably pretty close.





p.s. - yesterday was my first day back in the office after all of the business travel so I didn't have a chance to pull the time slips and post them. I'll get to it. Still have 2 more weeks until my next race.