gutting my sterio system out

[mikegett]

Originally Posted by Ryan from Ohio

Amps: Well again highly subjective on price range. Its documented fact power is power. So you pay for name, build quality and features. Now a black eye is some brands over rate their stuff. So thats what you need to be careful on

This is a bit missleading. There are many factors that determine the quality of the sound produced by your amp. To say it is documented that power equals power, you are way off target. Low frequencies, produced from a sub, have little affect from the quality of the amp. If you just want to power a sub, then go with a decent amp that fits the budget and powers the subs you choose. But if the mid and high range speakers are going to be powered by a amp, then quality is better. The higher the frequency, the more the sound will be affected by the amp. Your amp, by nature is a very dirty piece of harware. One major factor is the conversion from DC to AC and back to DC. This raises cost of the amp compared to a home audio system and hinders the company from placing more imphasis on the filtering. To build a amplifier is relatively easy. The difficulty comes in filtering the signal. This is where the cost of the amp scyrockets.
sillygirl, just remember that sound is very subjective. I can rattle on all day how good one product is over another. Some people may agree, while others disagree. As Ryan stated, you should make a budget and approach it with a list of personal priorities. First, what type of sound are you going for? Is the improvement of sound more important than the features a new deck will give you? And most important, what kind of music do you like. You may find that you choice of music will not warrant a new sub, but should have more imphasis on the lower mid range. Just for a example. If you listen to much rock or metal, a sub will have less impact on the sound (even the bass) than a good mid range speaker and amp. Once you have decided on the approach, you must also factor in the extra costs. Wires, fuses, a electrical upgrade if necessary, enclosure cost, and my favorite sound deadening. All these will cost a good chunck of your budget. this is why it is so important to know your expectations of the system. Let us know your music choices. It will help to know what part of the music you pick out. Do you like the low beats? Are vocals more important than the guitar lead? All these factors will help us to show where your money should be placed. Good luck on your choices and we look forward to hearing back from you. Mike Gettinger

[Ryan from Ohio]

Power is power, period.

A Boss Audio systems amp putting out an actual 50 WRMS with all things being equal it will sound the same as a kicker amp putting out 50 WRMS. That is proven fact.

I used to disagree, yet nobody to date has been able to take Richard Clark''s $10,000, so I digress.

So in reality you are simply paying for build quality, engineering, features and the name on the amp...

Dont take that the wrong way. Many amps wont produce the power they claim. Many cheaper amps are just junk and fail at a young age...

But power is power and always will be.

One major factor is the conversion from DC to AC and back to DC

To my knowledge, there is no place in an amplifier that DC is turned to AC, then back to DC? Im a bit baffled with that statement.

The higher the frequency, the more the sound will be affected by the amp.

Thats totally false, made up. It has no merit.

http://www.davidnavone.com/a2000/Amp...20Revision.pdf

[Steven01]

well here is what i have set up and its pritty sweet sounds GOOD not too loud but will do till i save up for the 15" l7 Kicker
deck: Pioneer DVD AVH-P4900DVD
amp: Rockford p3001 Good amp 900watts 300rms
sub: Pioneer Premier 10" custom box ts-w2504spl
speakers: Alpine Type s all around
Yea if you would like some pictures Ill have some soon just have to get the camra and take it for a wash

[mikegett]

Originally Posted by Ryan from Ohio

Power is power, period.

A Boss Audio systems amp putting out an actual 50 WRMS with all things being equal it will sound the same as a kicker amp putting out 50 WRMS. That is proven fact.

I used to disagree, yet nobody to date has been able to take Richard Clark''s $10,000, so I digress.

So in reality you are simply paying for build quality, engineering, features and the name on the amp...

Dont take that the wrong way. Many amps wont produce the power they claim. Many cheaper amps are just junk and fail at a young age...

But power is power and always will be.



To my knowledge, there is no place in an amplifier that DC is turned to AC, then back to DC? Im a bit baffled with that statement.



Thats totally false, made up. It has no merit.

http://www.davidnavone.com/a2000/Amp...20Revision.pdf

I am sorry Ryan, but I still have to disagree. I am a tech for Fujits Ten that manufactures OEM based products and warranty products for Eclipse. There is some merit to what you are attempting to say, but it only applies to a small percentage. Every traditional car amplifier will convert to a AC signal prior to amplification. The same thing occurs in the HU as well. This is a big factor in the cost and quality of a home audio versus car. DC signals are very noisy and non efficient. Since the amplifier's 12 volt output transistors lack the capacity to pull extended wattage, we actually need a slightly higher voltage. Hence, why the power is converted to 100 volt AC. This adds cost to the product due to added electrical componants. One major reason that OEM products utilize the digital signal from the HU. Without the internal amp, the cost is reduced and it even gains a sonic advantage over the traditional Powered HU. Your statement of power is power is true. When dealing with the same technology. Unfortunately, there are multiple forms of amp technology todate. Today we have AB, A, D, G, H, & T. With the addition of the ICE patent, there is even a hybrid. The two most common being the AB and D class. class AB amps will produce the most accurate over a broad range of frequencies but lack the efficiency of others. The class D traditionaly is more efficient but is very selective in the frequency it can produce. Five years ago, the class D was virtually unusable in any frequency over 200 Htz. This is not due to the power of the amp, but the technology used to amplify the signal. There are many companies that produce newer class D amps that can utilize the full frequency range. However, the cost is very steep and the sound is still not favored above the AB amp. High frequencies have a very harsh sound to them and lack the punch in the midrange. This is why magazines will rate a amplifier and show the frequency response of low, mid and high signals. No amplifer will result in a identical signal. when looking at the traditional AB amp, the same holds true. One amp will have a very different frequency curve compared to another. This is characteristic of the company. think of it this way. As the signal is amplified, the low frequencies are not going to be on a linear curve with the highs. One manufacturer may focus more attention to the low spectrum (cheaper due to less electronics required to filter) while others will focus on higher spectrums (more expensive to filter the noise and distortion that is audible).

[Ryan from Ohio]

I fully understand about class A, Class B, Class A/B and Class D. All others are modified Class D assigning a new class to be different, but its still Class D.

If you are positive in what you have to say, I urge you to take Rick Clarks Challenge.

After reading article after article I am sure your ears will fail along with anyone elses.

It ranks right up there with people who hear differences in speaker wire in their HT setups...

Simply put, human ears can not reasonably detect the minute differences in sound. From Tube, to Class A to Class D. You just cant. Test instruments can, but we just cant. Hes been through this with numerous people, some well respected. In a blind A/B test, nobody can tell.

When all features are disabled, power is power. The features are not available to color the sound. Thats what he is trying to get across.

So in essence, you are paying for engineering, features, build quality and the product name.

Even when you take other factors like headroom and slew rate... Our ears just cant sense it...

[mikegett]

I could try to explain this all day. The fact is you don't have the general undestanding of how a amplifier works. If you did, you would understand the most simple and important part of a car amp. The Power supply. Rick's challenge is very missleading for the general public. His statements have a bit of facts. Power is power. And when you break it down, to an extent, it is going to be hard for the human ear. But what Rick fails to explain is how the amplifier works. Your amp is not simply pumping out wattage. There are many industrial power supplies that could be used to achieve a similar affect. Just keep in mind that the result would not be pleasant. Read the rules. One key element is the frequency range. He attempts to circumvent the challenge by going as far as to allowing a eq to be used. If his challenge were realy about the amplifier, then no hardware would be needed. So why then is a eq required to place the amp on equal planes? Because the limitations of the manufacturer and cost did not allow it to address those areas of weakness. Hense, the lower cost of the amp. For the consumer, it all comes down to what the total cost is. The company must weigh in one hand the cost of the product and in the other the quality. This is what Rick does not want the consumer to know. In stead, he simply claims that we are seeing a true test of power and the human ear. In reality, no two amps are equal. Due to the limitations of cost. Once again, I can debate this all day. It won't matter. I don't realy care if you understand the fundamentals of the design. What I do care about is seeing someone make a uneducated assumption and sell it to the consumer.

[Ryan from Ohio]

You know, theres a lot of mumbo jumbo here, and Im having a hard time swallowing it.

First off you say:

One major factor is the conversion from DC to AC and back to DC.

The simple FACT is this does NOT happen in any car audio amplifier. The power supplies are run on DC. The signal inputed into the amplifier for amplification is in AC. The end result is an amplified AC signal. There is NO DC-AC-DC in it. Unless Ive totally overlooked something?

The difficulty comes in filtering the signal.

What filtering is done? Thats all extras! Thats what Im talking about. Filtering such as EQing and crossovers. Thats simply extras. The power is still power. An amplifier does not color the sound to a noticeable level without extras such as filters, crossovers, bass boost...

Every traditional car amplifier will convert to a AC signal prior to amplification.

Maybe we are arguing a moot here... But the input signal is AC. It never was DC... The power supply is not the signal... The RCA input is the signal. The output signal is simply the amplified input. Which was never DC, ever.

He attempts to circumvent the challenge by going as far as to allowing a eq to be used. If his challenge were really about the amplifier, then no hardware would be needed. So why then is a eq required to place the amp on equal planes?

If Im not mistaken, the amps are made to scope the same on the O Scope. Giving way to the fact power is power. When no filters, whether user adjustable or built in can interfere, power is power.

I hope nobody takes what I have said out of context. I do not tell people to run out and buy a Boss Audio amp simply because power is power. I tell people to buy whats in their price range that supplies the power they need with the features they want.

I know there are plenty of features that aide us and help tone our systems.

Im no stranger to the higher end items also, so Ive tried some of the better stuff out there. For instance I just came off a McIntosh MX4000/MDA4000. I used an Eclipse EA4000 which powered my Rainbow prfoi fronts and my 8" Neo in a 6th order. Surely when putting together such a system the Eclipse is way out of place. But given the amount of money in hand, the features and its power output it did just fine, even for a cheaper amp...

Thats the point.

[white04alero]

ok anyways, sillygirl,
i have a pioneer deh-p4900iB and i love it, and you will too esp. if you have an ipod and if you do then spend the extra 30 bucks to get the ipod cable so you can hook it right up to the unit..
my front and rear speaks are pioneer and im not very satisfied with them, so ive been looking into some infinity's or polk.
anyways, i have 2 12" Kicker compVR subwoofers.. 400WRMS a piece and its powered by a kicker 750.1zx amplifier (i think i got the numbers right on the amp)
anyways, i really want some diff speaks all around, so my suggestion is DONT go with pioneer in your speakers, go with infinity or polk or alpine, not pioneer
headunit - pioneer all the way, alpine is great too
sub/amp... well, i havent had much luck with pioneer stuff here either, had a lot of luck with kicker, mtx, and alpine, havent really tried anything else... wait i tried sony and it ended up crapping out.. dont get sony shit here, just not worth the materials they put into it. my overall fav is kicker

Hope i could help!!

[02Alero]

deffinetly pioneer cd player they are the best. i like jl audio subs but they are a little pricey. i got pionner components in my doors and the dont sound pretty good.

[Ryan from Ohio]

Originally Posted by 02Alero

deffinetly pioneer cd player they are the best.

McIntosh is the best, bar none.

[white04alero]

i'll stick with pioneer

[Ryan from Ohio]

Ya I got the 880PRS now.

Its got some very valuable features that make it awesome. But overall it doesnt produce the same quality of sound, not even close. Im talking pre amp section too. I dont use the internal amp, its shut off.

Them $1,200 used mcIntosh radios are worth the price for SQ.

[Freezman2]

I'd go with a Pioneer Radio and Kicker speakers....ive got them and love them

[billytheman1188]

IDK if someone already said this, cause i didnt feel like reading all the posts, but maybe you should swap out your rear speakers? Those are the ones that will make it sound different (they are louder). I blew out my rear speakers, i need to get some. But you should just leave the front speakers how they are, because they will give you clarity. You dont need your front speakers hitting hard (unless your an audio freak!). Your subs are going to do the hard hitting.

Anyways, i have 2 12" infinity subwoofers (had them for 2 years now) and still no problem. The only problem i had was my sub box falling apart. So i bought a new one. But i would recommend infinity. They are cheap AND GREAT! I bought mine off of ebay WITH A BOX (which is long gone) for $250. great deal. I also have a kenwood amp (1100 watts) and i havent had any problems with that.

[white04alero]

yea ryan lol 1200 mcintosh USED?? redculous! i know their good but damn

[Ryan from Ohio]

Considering its a unit from 1996 and new the combo cost $3,000...

[lonnie]

Originally Posted by Ryan from Ohio

Considering its a unit from 1996 and new the combo cost $3,000...

Holy Shit!! At that price it better come with a booty hole some where and no back talk.

[Ryan from Ohio]

Unfortunately it was a picky bltch.

It didnt like scuffed up CDs, they had to be like mint!

[lonnie]

Originally Posted by Ryan from Ohio

Unfortunately it was a picky bltch.

It didnt like scuffed up CDs, they had to be like mint!

Damn that sucks...did you try to buffing them or burning them on a CD-R. That's how I get around my scuffs.

[Ryan from Ohio]

even when they scuff...