3.4l v6 with LZE 3500 VVT heads??!?!

[oldskid33]

hey new to the forum .. been payin for it to my folks and i'm about read for the mod fest to begin . i don't know much never had the engine apart. well i was reading the up on different v6 engines to see what i could do to kick up the power and i notice the top end swap kit from milzy motorsports and i was curious if the top end of the LZE would fite with out any problems? Don't hate me cuz i don't know I'm a quick learner.


Keith

[WhiteV6]

The LX9 is the version you want for a 3400. The VVT engines have larger cylinders, and the heads are wider (deeper?). The valves would hit the 3400 cylinder bore and the heads would hang over. I think we have pics, or at least a discussion on 60degreev6.com.

The LX9 top end is seriously bad ass for the 3400.

[Midgear]

Originally Posted by WhiteV6

The LX9 top end is seriously bad ass for the 3400.

LX9 top swap? would that work?

edit: im dumb, i was thinking of something else- and i was like "holy crap!" but its the 3500 that these guys are talkin about. i think.

[WhiteV6]

Yup, it is what I used on the 12.4:1 compression engine I built for a customer. Ive done a lot of flowbench work on these engines and the 3500 heads impressed the hell out of me, both for flow, and design.

[Midgear]

stage 2 heads < 3500 heads?

[WhiteV6]

What are stage 2 heads?

[Midgear]

Originally Posted by WhiteV6

What are stage 2 heads?

thought you were one of the milzy motorsports people lol

"Stage 2 - Full port and polish, port-matching the intake runners, D-shaping/re-angling of exhaust ports, significant bowl work, correcting the short side radius, polished cc-matched combustion chambers


Race Valve Job (9-angle Intake, radiused Exhaust)
CC-matched combustion chambers
stainless steel swirl-polished under-cut valves in OEM diameter
Comp Cams valve springs (128lbs at install height), Comp Cams retainers, and Comp Cams keepers
bronze valve guide liners
new Viton valve seals
assembled and toleranced
clearanced for safe lifts up to .560" "

those are the stage 2 heads from milzymotorsports.com

[WhiteV6]

No, Check my sig. WOT-Tech.com is my site. I have offered the TCE parts much longer than MMS, but MMS gets the sticky...:P

Stock 3500 heads own most ported 3400 heads. You don't need my opinion on the MMS parts specifically.

[Midgear]

hmm.. i think some research and comparison is in order- between the 3400 stage 2 and the 3500 heads

[BlackJack]

All depends on the individual's idea of the word "Stage (whatever)".

I've seen alot of people say that stage "2" 3400 flows better than stock 3500, but the ported 3500 leaves the 3400 in the dust. Others say 3500 stock is better than 3400 ported.

Until there are flow bench numbers to compare, and a standard for porting, it's all personal opinion.

[WhiteV6]

I have plenty of flow numbers. Flow numbers won't tell you everything. It won' tell you the exhaust runner is better for velocity. It won't tell you the 3500 intake port is raised compared to the 3400, or that it has a fin in the bowl area where there is usually a carbon streak on the older 60V6 heads.

Dynomation takes some of this into account, and it says 3500 destroys the 3400.

My street/strip heads and 1280 cam with similar mods to the MMS stage 2 car (other than 62mm vs the 65 mms was using), put down 10 more whp. I know how good my ported 3400 heads are, because of the amount of research I do, and number of heads I ruined in my quest to do the best. Knowing this, why would I use ported 3500 heads (mild porting, which I charge less for than doing the SS 3400 heads), with ported 3500 upper and lower? Because its better.

The upper intake for the 3500 flows worse than the 3400 upper...unless you port it. Perhaps that is what you are reading?

[BlackJack]

very possible. at the end of the day however, there are too many variables involved in the total setup to make a blanket statement. Cam, total intake path, exhaust configuration, etc. works together as a total package to provide the ultimate flow velocity. That's why some of the big-name V8 companies offer cam/intake packages.

[MilzyZ34]

I can't speak for other company's Stage 2 heads, but here is the comparison between our Stage 2 3400 heads and stock 3500 heads ...

Lift % diff (negative means 3500 flows better at this lift)

0.200 -12.990
.300 -12.100
.400 -4.100
.450 1.120
.500 6.140
.550 9.550
.600 11.690
.650 10.350

.200 -1.630
.300 -2.400
.400 10.530
.450 11.990
.500 13.380
.550 14.010
.600 15.080
.650 15.71

As you can see the 3500's fall off after .450" lift. So they are great for a stock cam, but for a higher lift cam, there are better options than stock 3500 heads. .400" and below is also where the 3500 heads outflow the 3400 heads, as much as 27% at low lift. Above this lift, the difference is much less ... with the 3500's advantage tapering from 7% to -1%. All in all the 3500's flow pretty well, but I wouldn't say they flow better than any ported 3400 heads. They couldn't touch our Stage 3's.

[WhiteV6]

What bore size is on your flowbench. That is crucial information that you have never shared. Without a true engine bore, you aren't getting real world flow. Funny how your flow numbers are comparable to newer V8 heads, but with the much smaller valves of the 3400...

Also, your idea of what flow/lift matters differs greatly with mine. We have been through that before though. You don't flow below .200 lift...nearly half of a stock cam.

Flow isn't everything. Your stage 3 heads have no intake or exhaust velocity. I own a flowbench, and have done over 800 flowtests on 60V6 heads. I am quite cetain stock 3500 heads will outperform your stage 3 setup. Of course I wouldn't leave everything else stock, but the heads themselves would be unmodified.

Blackjack, I totally agree on the total package. I have speced everything to make those simulations. I can make a blanket statement that 3500>3400, because we aren't comparing different motors. We are talking using 3500 heads on a 3400 vs 3400 heads.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by WhiteV6

What bore size is on your flowbench. That is crucial information that you have never shared. Without a true engine bore, you aren't getting real world flow. Funny how your flow numbers are comparable to newer V8 heads, but with the much smaller valves of the 3400...

Also, your idea of what flow/lift matters differs greatly with mine. We have been through that before though. You don't flow below .200 lift...nearly half of a stock cam.

Flow isn't everything. Your stage 3 heads have no intake or exhaust velocity. I own a flowbench, and have done over 800 flowtests on 60V6 heads. I am quite cetain stock 3500 heads will outperform your stage 3 setup. Of course I wouldn't leave everything else stock, but the heads themselves would be unmodified.

Blackjack, I totally agree on the total package. I have speced everything to make those simulations. I can make a blanket statement that 3500>3400, because we aren't comparing different motors. We are talking using 3500 heads on a 3400 vs 3400 heads.

Ben, what heads were on that 222whp car, 3400 or 3500?

[WhiteV6]

3400 Street/Strip

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by WhiteV6

3400 Street/Strip

That's cool. I'm not taking away from your record for a mild 3400 NA dyno, but it would be cool if sometime we could each put a car on the same dyno or go to the same track, so we can compare apples to apples.

[WhiteV6]

I agree.

[Bad99Olds]

as a non involved party, i absolutely agree... times talk and well.. yea we know the rest

[Redog]

What about the stage 2 3500 upper end swap (manis, heads) with all the goodies that Milzy has in his stage 2 preformance package?

I still like the Milzy stage 2 top end, but if I could swap the manis and heads to a 3500 and have better results...