3.4l v6 with LZE 3500 VVT heads??!?!

[WhiteV6]

IMO, there is no such thing as stage 2 3500 heads. Well, you could, but from what I have done, it would cost triple of what I recommend for NA, and the end result is a ruined head for performance other than boost. My boost 3400 head (stage 3?) is not for NA use and does outflow the 3500 head. However, its not just at peak lift level for most performance 60V6 cams.

The 3500 head's best attribute is velocity. Velocity is what gets that extra bit of air/fuel into the cylinder, and it is also what helps scavenge the exhaust out of the cylinder. Sure, much more to it than that, but I don't want to compare the whole motor right now or everything that effects these events. More flow with a smaller diameter, and at the lift points for peak piston velocity = more efficient. Better gas milage and more power...what more do you want:P

[BlackJack]

well, I'm just happy overall that at least two of the major vendors are making a presence here on Aleromod. All this talk will surely get some people drooling to make some performance upgrades, which is what the Alero community severely needs, and will certainly benefit all the vendors in the long run.

[Bad99Olds]

BJ your dead on, my performance plans got taken off the back burner and will be starting up here in the next few weeks due in large part to the thread

[BlackJack]

Originally Posted by Bad99Olds

BJ your dead on, my performance plans got taken off the back burner and will be starting up here in the next few weeks due in large part to the thread

Excellent buddy.....I'm seriously glad to hear that.

P.S. - just make sure and do plenty of research and reading before committing to a plan.

[Bad99Olds]

absolutely, im still kind of up in the air regrding what avenue i pursue, seems like the more reading i do the more indecisive i get

[WhiteV6]

It never ends, trust me. I started modding my 3.1 grand prix in 98 and look where that lead me:P 60DegreeV6.com and then my own business. Pretty sure its the same for MMS, only starting with the 3800 and then upgrading to 60V6s Im heavily biased towards these engines if you didn't know.

[oldskid33]

Wow glad i sparked ppl to make their engines more kick ass!! but i'm kinda disappointed that i couldn't put the VVT on it oh well looks like i just wait a couple more years and swap the whole d*** thing! oh darn right haha

keith

[BlackJack]

Originally Posted by WhiteV6

It never ends, trust me. I started modding my 3.1 grand prix in 98 and look where that lead me:P

Know what you mean. I started on here with "I got a CAI....woohoo...look at me!!"

Holy crap you can dig yourself in deep fast.

[jackal2000]

Originally Posted by Bad99Olds

absolutely, im still kind of up in the air regrding what avenue i pursue, seems like the more reading i do the more indecisive i get

if you ever get your lazy ass over here to hear my car i know you will be sold on modding the hell out of it.

just dont forget that with serious modding comes serious tuning.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by WhiteV6

IMO, there is no such thing as stage 2 3500 heads. Well, you could, but from what I have done, it would cost triple of what I recommend for NA, and the end result is a ruined head for performance other than boost. My boost 3400 head (stage 3?) is not for NA use and does outflow the 3500 head. However, its not just at peak lift level for most performance 60V6 cams.

The 3500 head's best attribute is velocity. Velocity is what gets that extra bit of air/fuel into the cylinder, and it is also what helps scavenge the exhaust out of the cylinder. Sure, much more to it than that, but I don't want to compare the whole motor right now or everything that effects these events. More flow with a smaller diameter, and at the lift points for peak piston velocity = more efficient. Better gas milage and more power...what more do you want:P

Our Stage 3 heads overtake the 3500 heads at around .325 lift. The 3500 heads have a slight gain below this lift, but pretty close to equal (4% or less).

[Bad99Olds]

Originally Posted by jackal2000

if you ever get your lazy ass over here to hear my car i know you will be sold on modding the hell out of it.

just dont forget that with serious modding comes serious tuning.

hahaa im working on it.. working weekends is a huge kill joy, but deffinitly plan on getting up there soon

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by WhiteV6

It never ends, trust me. I started modding my 3.1 grand prix in 98 and look where that lead me:P 60DegreeV6.com and then my own business. Pretty sure its the same for MMS, only starting with the 3800 and then upgrading to 60V6s Im heavily biased towards these engines if you didn't know.

Yeah i basically started the same way, modding my '99 Z34. I started making some exhaust products for the 95-99 Monte Carlos at first, got the car down to like a 14.2 sec 1/4 about 5 years ago with my NA setup. During this time i was making 3800 engine parts like cylinder heads, and decided to get into the base-model Monte Carlo 3100's which then lead to the 3400's in other GM vehicles. A year later i did a 3800 Supercharged swap into my car, and then the mod bug really hit. Since I graduated with my mechanical engineering degree in 2004, I've been running this business full time, and much of the emphasis of my business has gone towards the 60degree engines, mostly because the aftermarket was not as developed, but I still do a lot of 3800 work also.

[Midgear]

look at all this information.. lol

[BigStribS]

[WhiteV6]

Originally Posted by MilzyZ34

All in all the 3500's flow pretty well, but I wouldn't say they flow better than any ported 3400 heads. They couldn't touch our Stage 3's.

Originally Posted by MilzyZ34

Our Stage 3 heads overtake the 3500 heads at around .325 lift. The 3500 heads have a slight gain below this lift, but pretty close to equal (4% or less).

So you only consider flow past .325 when you say the stock 3500 heads can't touch your stage 3? Even with .600 lift, you have half of your lift flowing less than a stock 3500 head.

My boost heads outflow the 3500 intake ports at every lift point from .050 to .600.

Originally Posted by MilzyZ34

That's cool. I'm not taking away from your record for a mild 3400 NA dyno

So 222whp from a "mild" 3400, and your stage 3 put down 227whp. Im just questioning your choice of words, thats all.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by WhiteV6

So you only consider flow past .325 when you say the stock 3500 heads can't touch your stage 3? Even with .600 lift, you have half of your lift flowing less than a stock 3500 head.

My boost heads outflow the 3500 intake ports at every lift point from .050 to .600.



So 222whp from a "mild" 3400, and your stage 3 put down 227whp. Im just questioning your choice of words, thats all.

What I said was that they flow about equal (0-4% difference below .325 lift, with the greatest difference being at low lift) until around .325" lift, where my Stage 3 heads pull a considerable gain on the 3500's. Do your boost heads flow 290+cfm?

I congradulated you on your 222whp. It's a very impressive number. On our dyno, we made 211whp with Tim Kaczun's Stage 2 car with 140k miles on it, 90k miles since the Stage 2 parts were installed. Why are we 11whp shy of your 222? It could be a number of things: we could just have 11 less hp, the 2.5" press-bent exhaust Tim has may be restricting us, the variance in the dyno's could allow for some inaccuracy, perhaps you locked the torque converter up to increase the numbers, or it could be a weather/humidity thing ... who knows. Until we actually measure it with the same tool, there will always be room for argument. The only thing I can say about where I dyno is that I take every single car I dyno there and so do a lot of other GM V6 guys around here, including Intense Racing. It's become the benchmark dyno for us, where we can quantitively measure a car's performance. The 227whp was one of our preliminary passes, and I've covered that before. It is a good amount at the wheels, but trust me there is room for improvement with the replacement of some of the restrictive parts. We'll just have to see what the future holds for a Stage 3 car, but I'm shooting for 240-250whp.

[billytheman1188]

WOW, great thread! A lot of good information here, keep it up guys!

[WhiteV6]

Originally Posted by MilzyZ34

Do your boost heads flow 290+cfm?

Funny you ask. hell no they don't. The day you tell me what bore your bench uses is the day I take any of your numbers past .350 lift seriously. Funny that it is the exact point that the valve is now past the combustion chamber. hmmm.

Why is it that V8 heads with over 2" intake valves barely flow better, or in some cases equal to your 3400 stage 3 head? Doesn't add up.

For those that don't know flowbenches, you need to simulate the engine, with the cylinder bore. This shrouds the valve, restricting flow. If you run an open box or a much larger bore, you create less restriction, which boosts flow numbers. I did testing on a honda 450 TRX quad head, by flipping the head around on the bench. This put the intake valves dead center. Flow increased considerably.

[Mr_Reed]

damn, some good information being put out we need a thread like this on Turbo charging the 3400.

[Bad99Olds]

Originally Posted by Mr_Reed

damn, some good information being put out we need a thread like this on Turbo charging the 3400.

motion seconded