Aleromod.com Aleromod.com

Go Back   Aleromod.com > Performance Related > General Performance

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-10-2007, 02:54 PM   #1
BlackJack
Jack-Wagon
 
BlackJack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,834
BlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond repute
Answer to recent transmission questions....

Quote:
Originally Posted by volfenhag_alero
I was wondering if you knew of any tranny upgrades that can withstand a turbo and nitrous setup. I'm going to be running a 100-125 shot of nitrous and about 12lbs. of boost. If you could help me out, I'd really appreciate it.

First, I apologize for getting off-topic and not answering your question in a direct manner. However, your question isn't as simple as that. if I told most people what it would take to put that much power to the ground in simple terms, they'd end up breaking so much other stuff and ask why I didn't mention that. I hate being responsible for costing someone alot of money due to unforseen breakage.

Second, this will have to go in two posts because there is a 10,000 character limit per post (sorry).

I'm always the first to stand up against anyone saying "you can't" when it comes to performance mods, but if you're going to run 12psi AND a 100-125 shot, you're going to have to do a HELL of a lot more than just tranny upgrades.

Since I'm not going to say "you can't", I'm going to tell you what you CAN do to prep for that much power. You're going to need to sink a minimum of $3,000-$5,000 into the engine alone for starters, not including the turbo and nitrous kits. Factory internals have not reacted favorably to that much power when suddenly applied.

First, you're going to need ALL forged internals (crank, rods, and pistons, and I recommend a billet cam)

Crank - about $500-$1,000 - either have your crank cryo-treated or install one from a late model 3500 engine (factory forged), the latter will require you to change out the crank position trigger and sensor, which will require some welding and machining. Cryo treating your factory cast crank will make it stronger than stock, but still not as strong as forged. Cost for cryo-treating is variable based on who you go through, and since I dont usually bother with cryo, you'll have to do the research to find out who/how much.

Rods - $300-500 per set, plus machining costs. You can get any SMALL JOURNAL 5.7 chevy small block V8 rods and the journal is the correct diameter, but you will have to have them "side-clearanced" because they are just a hair too fat. This means you can run any of the big heavy duty brand names like Crane, etc. For boosted application, I recommend the H-beam style rods.

Pistons - around $800 or more - there are no mass-manufactured forged pistons for the 3400 engine, so you will have to send in a factory piston to one of the major race parts companies to have them custom make a set for you. I sent a friend of mine to Ross Pistons, and they made a set for him for around $800, but I can't give you the specs because he had them make some other modifications for him (lower compression for boost) and only he has the numbers he used.

ARP studs/bolts/hardware - $250 just for head studs, you'll have to look up how much the rest of them are - you're going to need to replace ALL of your internal engine bolts with ARP brand hardened, or else your factory bolts will come apart because they're not strong enough to handle that much pressure. Main, connecting rod, and head studs as a minimum.

Head gaskets - $300 - Full coppers with stainless compression rings will be required here or you're just going to keep blowing them out.

Major head work - $1,500 - you're going to have to have about a "stage 3" job done, to include stainless valves (or they'll burn up under that much power), port and polish to keep up with that much flow, titanium locks/retainers, upgrade to ARP 10mm rocker studs, and dual valve springs from Crane or Comp. Cams for an LSx version chevy V8 engine so you don't get "cam float" under hard acceleration.

Main/rod/cam bearings - $unknown - You'll need to upgrade to Clevite 77 bearings all throughout to keep up with that kind of torque.

Billet flex plate - $350? - the stock one will most likely shatter under that much torque, so you need a billet/forged flex plate.

Under-drive crank pulley setup - $100-200 used. Not made any more, but if you can find a FFP (Fast-Forward Performance) model used, it will keep you from causing all your drive accessories from exploding (such as power steering pump, A/C compressor, Alternator, Water pump, etc.) This will reduce the amount of suddent torque applied to them and keep them from failing.

Ignition setup - $500+ - including coil packs, Kenne Bell Boost-a-Spark, wires and plugs. You're going to have to increase the amount of power to your spark dramatically in order to ignite under that much compression, otherwise it will just 'blow out the flame'. Don't forget to run your plugs a couple ranges colder than stock.

Fuel system - about $1,000 - You'll need a fuel pump (and booster) capable of pushing more than 255 liters per hour (such as a Walbro model 340) to keep up with the fuel demand, and that may STILL not be enough. You may have to go to a full race in-line model pump rather than the in-tank model. You'll also need to bump up to #65 injectors ($300-$400) to keep up. You'll also need a Kenne Bell Boost-a-Pump to boost the voltage to the fuel pump and regulate the juice during voltage/amperage fluctutuations.

Torque Converter - $400+ - You'll need the internals reworked to keep up with the heat and pressure, such as brazened/hardened fins in the turbine, race journals, and anti-ballooning plates just for starters.

MAF sensor - upgrade to a corvette style MAF and adjust your computer data tables to match. This is what measures the air flow coming through your intake system, and determines how much fuel it needs to provide to compensate. The factory MAF sensor will not read high enough to keep up with that much flow.

Wideband O2 sensor - about $300-$400 - necessary to get/maintain a proper tune. This will help the computer to make fueling adjustments quicker to keep up with the sudden changes in requirements. The factory O2 is a narrow band setup and does not report changes fast enough (real time) and can quite quickly cause a lean condition at a bad time.

Tuning/Computer - $400 - You'll need a "DHP PowrTuner" or an "HP Tuner" in order to make all the tuning adjustments you'll need to make, and it would be a good idea to become a tuning guru with LOTS of research on how to tune, because under that much power, one little mistake will make the whole engine go "pop" and that's not a good thing with that much invested. If you prefer, the alternative is a stand-alone EMS which will cost anywhere from $400-$1,000.

Nitrous controller - If you're going to be stuffing a 100-125 shot nitrous setup in there, I recommend you use a two-stage controller and not dump all 100hp on your system all at once. Good way to blow shit up.

_____
Now that we've covered what you'll need for the engine because I suspect you might not have been aware of all that, we can start in on your real question for the transmission.
_____
__________________

BlackJack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2007, 02:55 PM   #2
BlackJack
Jack-Wagon
 
BlackJack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,834
BlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond reputeBlackJack has a reputation beyond repute
** The actual answer **
To date, it is unknown if the factory style 4t45e can handle the power you're talking about with the upgrades that are currently on the market. The fastest 1/4 mile time on record for the 4t45e is currently in the low 12's, and still having issues. What's involved in the current 4t45e transmission setups (which is still too weak in my opinion) is merely a new set of Raybestos clutches/hardened steels, billet accumulator pistons, LSD, and performance torque converter that I know of. You can always send out internal parts for cryo-treatment, but I seriously don't know how far that will take you.

_____

If you're seriously wanting to put that much power to your transmission, I recommend either swapping to a 5-speed manual, or swapping in a 4t65e-HD that is fully built from a company like ZZPerformance. Currently they have their own car running low 9's in the 1/4 on this transmission with a TT 3800 engine.

Cost for them to build you a transmission unit to handle the power you are asking about is going to be around $4,000.

This will include hardened input/output shafts as well as oil pump shaft, Raybestos clutches, hardened steels, a 1" single chain drive with gears, hardened 2nd, reworked valve body, billet accumulator pistons, solenoids, LSD, and some proprietary work such as an oil squirter for the LSD, etc.

Install - $1,500 - or more - You'll need to have custom mounts fabricated, Also, the axles and hubs from the GTP will be needed as well. You'll have to get custom hub spacers machined because the axles are longer than the Alero's. Computer AND wiring harness will have to be changed out for one that came factory with the 4t65/3400 combination (like the base model Impala). If you don't want to go through all that work, you can wait for the "4t65 swap kit" that will soon be produced at Milzy Motorsports (MMS) and I have no idea how much that's going to cost.

Other miscellanous things you'll need is having the axles/CV's hardened, or you'll shatter the bearing cage, and/or twist the axles. You can get hardened axle setups through several companies out there.

Light weight rotary forged wheels are recommended because you seriously need to reduce "unsprung weight" to keep from putting too much torque stress to the rest of your drive train. $1,000-$3,000

Drag radials - unless you want to play "sit-and-spin". $500-600

________

9 times out of 10, someone hears about something cool they can throw under their hood to make it go fast, but have no idea what all is involved in making the kind of power they're thinking of initially without breaking lots of shit.

Personally, I wouldn't go through all that unless you're either going to go full race with your car, or else you're hell-bent to break all the current N-body records out there.

If you just want streetable horsepower, I would just go with either 12psi turbo kit, OR the 100-shot NOS, but not BOTH, unless you just have an insane amount of money to spend.

Either way, good luck, and I hope all that long-winded banter answered your questions in the end.

----Remember, opinions are going to vary from person to person on what you can get away with as a minimum, but what I tell you is based on what I recommend for continuous use, and then there's still a strong chance for breakage somewhere along the way. There's no point in telling you what will hold up for a few runs, and then break a couple thousand miles later. Better to suck it up and make sure everything will hold together the first time.

If anyone else has thought of something that I left out, please chime in. I was in a rush to get to other things I'm working on.

Now let the arguments fly.

-BlackJack-
__________________

BlackJack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2007, 04:45 PM   #3
[ion] C2
much fast - wow
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 11,518
[ion] C2 has a reputation beyond repute[ion] C2 has a reputation beyond repute[ion] C2 has a reputation beyond repute[ion] C2 has a reputation beyond repute[ion] C2 has a reputation beyond repute[ion] C2 has a reputation beyond repute[ion] C2 has a reputation beyond repute[ion] C2 has a reputation beyond repute[ion] C2 has a reputation beyond repute[ion] C2 has a reputation beyond repute[ion] C2 has a reputation beyond repute
*clap*
[ion] C2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2007, 05:21 PM   #4
doubleN0alero
They call me 8 point!!
 
doubleN0alero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 12,209
doubleN0alero is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to doubleN0alero Send a message via Yahoo to doubleN0alero
Nice work BJ. That is sticky material...alot of good information in these posts...
__________________
R.I.P. Dennis J. Willis July 14, 1977 - Jan 19, 2007
doubleN0alero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2007, 08:57 PM   #5
CharleyO99Alero
GL Member
 
CharleyO99Alero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: southeastern NC
Posts: 455
CharleyO99Alero is on a distinguished road
***

Very good posting, BlackJack. Many do not consider most of the points you made in those 2 posts.

***
CharleyO99Alero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2007, 08:29 PM   #6
Spilner521
Boost Guru
 
Spilner521's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 1,837
Spilner521 is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to Spilner521
Key sentence in that entire post:

I would just go with either 12psi turbo kit, OR the 100-shot NOS, but not BOTH

Good info. And no disrespect to the guy who asked about it, but some people just don't realize that you can't just go throw on every power adder that you think of and automatically have a blazing fast car.
__________________
Spilner521 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2007, 10:24 PM   #7
AleroB888
GLS member
 
AleroB888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Fort Knox area, KY
Posts: 2,099
AleroB888 has a reputation beyond reputeAleroB888 has a reputation beyond reputeAleroB888 has a reputation beyond reputeAleroB888 has a reputation beyond reputeAleroB888 has a reputation beyond reputeAleroB888 has a reputation beyond reputeAleroB888 has a reputation beyond reputeAleroB888 has a reputation beyond reputeAleroB888 has a reputation beyond reputeAleroB888 has a reputation beyond reputeAleroB888 has a reputation beyond repute
That has got to be the best write-up on modding these cars I have ever seen. Well done!
__________________
1999 GLS MP90 supercharged / 2003 GL MP62 supercharged / 2004 GLS stock
Magnuson MP90 / TOG's / 3 in. Magnaflow exhaust / MSD ignition / LS1 MAF / Racetronix pump / HP Tuners / TCE 68mm TB / 36 lb Inj
= Best track time: 12.951 @ 104.48, 1.839 60 ft. (Beech Bend Raceway Park, 11-23-13), 50 Deg. F
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpVYZPbpPzk
AleroB888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2007, 10:34 PM   #8
meadus101
Hot and Fluffy.
 
meadus101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1,698
meadus101 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to meadus101
I just want to drop a 350 into the Ho. But that was an amazing post.
__________________
Children, Don't follow in my footsteps. I walk into walls.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2938872
http://www.tsfgaming.net
meadus101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2007, 12:36 AM   #9
alerored04
GLS member
 
alerored04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: New Prague, MN
Posts: 2,482
alerored04 is an unknown quantity at this point
great post but sadly it wont help the guy who asked the question, it was proved that he was absolutely full of shit and was posting pictures of a car that was supposedly his with a custom kit when the pics really came off ebay. Great write up though.
__________________
My car breaks alot.
(Notice I need someone to make me a sig?)
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2598719/1
alerored04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2007, 06:51 AM   #10
volfenhag_alero
GX Member
 
volfenhag_alero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Plainview, Tx
Posts: 111
volfenhag_alero is on a distinguished road
^^ You sure do like to talk a lot of shit for not knowing anything about me or my car... but that's alright b/c your just jealous that I have the time and money to do shit to my ho and you don't... Get a life and stop talking shit.
volfenhag_alero is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.