New Car, New Subs

[jwth2005]

Hey guys I just got a new car... Im having to get rid of the alero due to too many problems.. anyway i had two 12 inch Visonik DVC subs in a ported box in the alero... Now i have an 01 Ford Escort ZX2 which feels like half the space... Theoretically the box i have will fit but it wont go thru either openings.... So ive been looking for boxes subs and anything i can to get a system to fit... I think i have decided that a single sub setup in a conventional box will be good until i can afford to fiberglass a pair of subs in... So the single sub is going to have to be better than the two i have combined(shouldnt be a problem). I listen to mostly rock and Sound quality is a BIG issue for me. i want it CLEAN.... Yet i dont want it to sound wimpy.... So i need some suggestions and comments... I found this

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-viiecxVz0xt/c...510&I=575PL3112 (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-viiecxVz0xt/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=510&I=575PL3112)

Which is a lil high

And i was also thinking about some Alpine type S's I cant afford the Type X's but they appear to be bad ass....

I will settle for either 10 or 12 inch subs.

Jeremy


P.S. also need amp suggestions.I currently have a 1000watt Profile California Mono amp. Am willing to buy another amp if needed

[Coldfire]

I always have thought that 10" subs sounded good for rock music. I personally have 2X 10" bazooka subs with a traditional box and stored them in my dad's '99 ZX2 (they weren't hooked up or anything) but they did fit.

[jwth2005]

Maybe i should also add i would also like to use the trunk from time to time lol for those that want to know it has an 11 cubic foot trunk versus the aleros nearly 15 cube

[violentrapture]

I'd recommend either an SS RL-p or SI Mag - the 12" versions of both are designed for small sealed (.75-1.5 ft.^3), and are really superb SQL drivers.

~vR

[jwth2005]

What brands??

[violentrapture]

SS RL-p = SoundSplinter:

12" RL-p link (http://www.soundsplinter.com/rlp12_premium_series_12_inch_DIY_subwoofer_informa tion.html)

SI Mag = Stereo Integrity:

12" Mag link (http://www.stereointegrity.com/Magnum12.html)

~vR

[jwth2005]

Couple questions and coments on the 2 you reccomended. First Have you heard these yourself??? Second the 1st one is that 600-700 RMS??? The amp i have is 500 watts RMS at 2 Ohms with 1000 max... The second one seems nice but i am afraid that my amp wont have enough juice to power it.. I also noticed it uses a paper cone....

Any info and more suggestions is always appreciated!

J

[violentrapture]

I have indeed heard both - the SI I heard was a 15 though - still sounded incredible. The RL-p works great with 600-700W RMS as the site says, the SI is rated for 900W RMS.

Regarding paper cones - check what Velodyne (SPL1000 I think it is?), Tidal audio, Scan Speak, some of Seas' drivers I believe, Morel, etc. use. :P

With the power you have availble, you might want to check into Image Dynamics subs also - their IDQ line might be perfect for you, also a bit cheaper. I just picked up a couple of 10" IDv.3s last night to put in my girlfriend's car... two 10s sealed going in the back of a '98 beetle with trunk space left over:

http://i3.tinypic.com/wvcs2x.jpg

[jwth2005]

Sounds great man! I Definately want trunk space lol I was thinking about going down to 1 12 or maybe 2 10s again i have a fairly small trunk and i still want to be able to use it lol

[jwth2005]

Man this is rough trying to choose which one is right for me is hard!!! Ive read on the SI and ppl seem to say its the best SQ sub... Then again the other two(ID and SS) Sound tempting as well for the prices.... Again the sub must also be as loud if not louder than the 2 12's that i had... I only need one sub this time around due to lack of space... The 12's had a RMS rating of 300 RMS. These here:

http://www.visonikcaraudio.com/sub/product...bwoofers_5.html (http://www.visonikcaraudio.com/sub/products/subwoofers_5.html)

and heres my amp

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-2z1Yn7l6byP/c...20&I=489AP1000M (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-2z1Yn7l6byP/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=120&I=489AP1000M)


Please help me in my decision... ANother thing... I had a ported box before... SHould i go back to ported or go with a sealed box???

[violentrapture]

Well, if the amp does 500@1@2, I'd say an ID IDQ12-D4 would be perfect in just under 1ft.^3 sealed - you could call ID and get an enclosure recommendation.

If you're worried about loud - few years back somebody pulled over 150 with 2 ID 12s at dB Drag finals.

Just remember - it's all about install. ;)

~vR

[jwth2005]

hehe thanks man I had been leaning towards those IDs anyway! If u have any more information to give me i will gladly accept it!

[violentrapture]

Well, the guy I bought those 2 10s from is selling 2 of the IDQ12-D4s - he wants $225 shipped for both - I'd offer $100 shipped for one.

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.p...2&highlight=IDQ (http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156572&highlight=IDQ)

Those IDQs go for $160 ea. before shipping on cardomain.com

As you can see in the thread, I drove 10hrs. roundtrip to go pick up the 10s... Jeremy is a great guy to deal with and that'd be an awesome deal for one of those - if you do message him, tell him I'd be interested in picking up the 2nd one if he doesn't want to separate.

Cheers,
~vR

[pimpalero2003]

ok some people are going to hate this but at lease there not entry level i have 2 audiobauhn flame Qs 12 the freaking pound but there just for now i got them cheap and im going to sell them when i get my new stuff but if u want some subs send me a PM and i can give u prices

[violentrapture]

Nothing wrong with some Flame Qs! They're going to be quite power hungry compared to what his amp is putting out though - out of curiosity, what's the model number on them and how much are you looking for per sub?

~vR

[mikegett]

The IDQ's are a very nice sub and can be bought for a reasonable price. Most subs can be geared toward a sond quality, it deepends more on how much air space, box quality, and amplifiier quality to deliver it. The IDQ is perfect since it requires very little air to get the broad frequency ranges. Your main issue is the amplifier. If your previous subs sounded good, then you should be fine. However, if you want a cleaner sound then a decent box will be needed to compensate for the amp. Profiles are one of the worst sounding amps I have ever used and hold a very small damping factor. This is the calculation on how well the amp can control your drivers. The lower the damping factor the less control the amp has and more distortion. Since the IDQ is a very well made sub it will need less damping than another brand. But to get the best sound ensure your box is very well made. 3/4 should be the bare minimum on the thickness. If you are going with two subs then kick it up to one inch mdf. And no matter how small the box is, place braces in all corners. One to sheets of sound deadoner will help to reduce the deflection from the sound waves as well. Good luck and keep us posted.

[jwth2005]

Wow thanks for the insight on the amp! Im Very new to amps in general... Can u possibly reccomend me a good amp around the same price range??? I will go up to 300 for an amp if need be....

[jwth2005]

Ive been looking for a sealed box for the IDq... SO i need some help what are the advantages and disadvantages in the size of the box (cubic feet)? I noticed it reccomended between .55 -1 cubic foot

[violentrapture]

Amp suggestions might be a Phoenix Gold X400.1 (can find for about $200) or JL Audio 500/1 (can usually find one in the $300 range).

As far as the box - sealed boxes require a little bit more power to get the output, but yield a flatter response. As long as you're within the recommended box size you'll be fine - you might have fun downloading WinISD: http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisd and seeing what it recommends.

~vR

[jwth2005]

Hey all im back lol.... Still in the market for a sub... So From this post im still looking at those IDQ's... I want one 12 inch sub. again SQ is a BIG issue for me. My visoniks sounded good for a while and now they are loosing what quality they had.... I have bumped my price range for a sub up to 400.... Subs MUST sound good but also need to be loud.... I dont care what kind of power they need... If they need it i will find it... Second question... Audiobahn aw1206t... Anyone heard these and can tell me how they are for SQ??? Also Need reccomendations for good SQ amps as well... I wanna do this new car right so a fresh install is in order...

Thanks in advance

J

[mikegett]

If you are looking for a decent amp, then pay attention to two primary factors for a subwoofer. The damping factor is how well the amp can control the movement of your subs cone. The higher the value, the more control the amp has. If you are running a sub, then avoid any amp with a value under 200. A/B amps that are meant for highs and lows can easily be under this value since mids don't require the extra control. A decent quality amp will average 200 to 400 for subwoofer use. Keep in mind the quality of your sub, and the box it will be going in. The higher the quality of the sub and the stronger the box will equate to lower resonance. This means that they will require less damping from the amp. A good sub and sturdy box can sound great with damping as low as 60. But as power is increased, the damping must be increased to reduce the resonance. Many subs can handle over 1000 watts producing quite alot of decibles. This is why I suggest staying at or over 200 on the amps damping factor. The second thing to look at is the signal to noise ratio. This refers to the dynamic range of the amplifier. In other words, how clean the sound is. In most cases a 98 db or above is acceptable. Many people will even argue that a sub amp has no bearing on sound quality from low dynamic range. This is not always true. The higher the dynamic range of your amp, the easier it is to reproduce the signal. Most subs amplifiers are pressed to the max of there RMS rating or beyond. A low dynamic range will mean the amplifier has a smaller window of reproduction and must be worked harder to achieve the same frequency reproduction. This means more distortion, smaller life spans on the amplifier, and less efficiency of a higher quality amp. I suggest staying with a signal to noise ratio of 100 or better. A high quality amp will be at least 105db.
I know you mentioned a price range of 300 for the amp. My personal recomendation would be the eclipse DA7122 monoblock. List price is over 700 dollars, but you may be able to get it off ebay for 400. At 2 ohms it has a RMS of 1000 watts and maxes out at 2000. It is by far the best sub amp I have ever seen. The dynamic range is over 1000 ( the closest I have ever seen is 800) and the signal to noise is 125. It is a class D, so the amperage used will be far less than a A/B amp. It also has balanced line adaptors built into the amp to eliminate any ground loops. My other suggestion would be the JL 500/1 monoblock. Once again, you can get it for around 400 off ebay. The damping factor is over 500 and the signal to noise is 95. The real benefit of the JL is that it will put out its rated power at 1.5, 2, and 4 ohm. This means you have a much greater flexibility when pairing the amp to subs. It is also rated at 11-14.5 volts from your cars electrical. Most companies rate the power at 14 volts meaning you will not achieve the full rated power.
I stand behind the IDQ's. They are a very decent sub and sound perfect for what you want. Sorry about the long post, good luck and just shop around. I don't know every company and neither do any others. You may find better subs or amps than what we have offered. Later, Mike G.

[jwth2005]

Wow... I REALLY Appreciat that info... That is extremely helpful! I really wanted to do this car right by starting fresh with a REALLY good system.. Now i have a question on the sub box... What makes an enclosure good??? And for my application... Whichwould be better for me Sealed or ported???

J

[mikegett]

Sealed or ported is more a personal preferance. Sealed boxes will tend to give a broader range of frequencies and sound cleaner. However, they are more inefficient and require more wattage. I have heard many ported enclosures that sounded great, but my skills at box calculating are limited. Consequently, I have always ran sealed.
The quality of your box is due to how rigid you make it. 3/4 is a minimum. I always use 1 inch. Stay away from the walmart 1/2 pre made boxes. They sound horrible. A subwoofer is not only producing sound waves on the outside of your box, but also on the inside. Try to avoid a perfect cube and angle the back if possible. This helps to disipate the resonance. Measure out where your subs magnet is located. Put your center brace in the middle of the magnet. This serves as a brace to reduce the sides from flexing and hold your sub snug in place. These babies are quite heavy and will flex the front of your enclosure if not properly held. All corners should have a angle brace if possible. My last suggestion is to round all square edges inside of the box. For example. Your corner braces and side brace anchoring the sub should have all edges rounded with a half round bit. If you use 3/4 material, you may wish to place a sheet of sound deadening material behind the magnet. I found that if you use 1 inch it is not needed. Your choice of material is primarily mdf and particle board. The denser the material the better. If you can make it out of solid hard wood such as cherry or walnut, even better. With solid wood you can safely go to 3/4 or even 5/8 thick stock and have no resonance and reduce weight. The draw back is the cost of the material.
You will want to be carefull sealing your box. Avoid silicone to seal the inside. The gases can deteriorate some sub surrounds. I use a helthy amount of wood glue around all corners inside. Hardware stores have very thin strips of rubber seal with adhesive on one side. It is pretty nice for sealing your sub to the box. Once your sub is installed, press on the cone. If it is stiff and springy then your seal is good. If it is spongy, then take it out and look for any leaks. Good luck, Mike Gettinger.

I will add a pic Monday of what I mean by bracing your sub.

[jwth2005]

SWEET!!! Cant wait to see those pics! Also on another note... Fiberglass boxes... how are they compared to a conventional wooden box???

[jwth2005]

hello???????

[violentrapture]

If done right, fiberglass won't flex...

[mikegett]

Sorry, I forgot about those pics. Here is a very poor sketch of what I mean. The main thing I want to convey is the center brace. I like to double it as a brace for the sub magnet as well. I can't realy comment on fibarglass. I have yet to hear any boxes made of it. I believe that it could make a very nice box, but I have doubts on the clarity of it over very dense wood. Density is the primary objective. Fiberglass is strong and resists flexing (with alot of expensive coats) but is not dense. Sound can't flow through objects of higher density. Lower density material tend to permiate sound giving the sense of hollowness. But, once again, I have yet to hear a fiberglass box. Maybe in the near future that will change when I start stalking violent for his setup.

[jwth2005]

No sketch........

[violentrapture]

Speaking of density, I've actually been toying with the idea of using the backing structure from one of our new products at work as enclosure material. It's a aluminum composite panel sandwiched honeycomb stuff, bonded with aviation epoxy and we get it in by the truckload for this product: http://www.stoneply.com (really cool stuff btw, in the architectural field).

My current enclosure is 18mm HDF coated with PVC underbody treatment.

*hides setup from Mike* ;)

~vR

[jwth2005]

Hmmmm.... Sounds interesting.. Are you going to attempt it???

[violentrapture]

I have some sheets of it in my closet - it comes in sizes from 1/4" to 3/4", so I'm not sure which would be the best to use. My idea is to snag one of those eD Eu-700 drivers, have MDF, HDF, 1/4" and 3/4" ACM/Honeycomb and fiberglass enclosures made for it and do A/B testing to see if there's any sonic differences between them - it's not exactly high on the priority list right now though. :P
~vR

[jwth2005]

HEHE SWEET MAN That would be awesome to find out.... How much do these sheets run??

[violentrapture]

My cost? The trouble to drive out to the plant and snag the sheets. :P
With stone applied we sell for about $40/sq.ft.
Not sure what just the backing would run - I can find out tomorrow if you're interested though.

[jwth2005]

Heck yea man if its a good option i am interested! I am always open for options!

[nickgonzo]

Originally posted by jwth2005@May 15 2006, 04:28 PM
SWEET!!! Cant wait to see those pics! Also on another note... Fiberglass boxes... how are they compared to a conventional wooden box???
Quoted post


Fiberglass boxes are good for a few reasons. If you are looking for an alternative to the weight of a wooden box. If you are want to save trunk space (i.e. make fiberglass a box in spaces where a conventional MDF box couldn't go). If you want a flashy install that you can mold to whatever shape and paint whatever color you desire.

Remember, fiberglass gets its its strength from curves. I've seen people stand on little FG kickpanels that were made for a 4" speaker... FG is very strong.

If you had two boxes of the same airspace, one FG and one MDF.. I bet you couldn't tell the difference.

[jwth2005]

I have no doubt that a FG box is just as strong as a wooden box.. but the arguement is density... whether or not it sounds as good as a denser material

[violentrapture]

Talked to our GM today - going to provide our PM with box plans once I get the specs I need and plans drawn up and have them make boxes out of a variety of materials:

Fiberglass (what our company *does*) http://www.strombergarchitectural.com

MDF and HDF

Granite (odd choice, but when I brought up what I was doing regarding density, he suggested having one done out of pure granite panels, so there it is)

ACM/Honeycomb panels (backing from the StonePly material)

Anybody else have any other materials they'd like to see used in this project?

~vR

** Lyndon asked me too "there much of a market for these?
You just might see: "Stromberg - subwoofer enclosures" one of these days

[jwth2005]

I think a box made out of cherry wood would be sweet! IF anything cool lookin if stained!

[violentrapture]

Hm, I'll add it to the list - maybe if I can sell these after I'm done with the test it'll be a kick in his rear to open up a new division.

~vR

[jwth2005]

Haha you betcha... Id be intereste in buying one of em prolly... just all depends on which one sounds best....

[mikegett]

Killer idea. How long do you think it would take for the trial boxes to be made? If possible, go with the cherry as well. Cherry, mahogany, and hard maple are viewed as the best material in the home audio realm. Not for finish reasons but for sound characteristics. Your material sounds realy cool. I have been contemplating the same thing with one of our materials. http://www.pentagon-ems.com/products/wave_...ets_detail.html (http://www.pentagon-ems.com/products/wave_solder_tooling/detail/wave_solder_pallets_detail.html)
It is called durapro and is used in pallet designs. It is a made from glass and ceramic compounds is extremely dense and light. The problem comes in milling of the material. You can route or mill it but it will take time and a respirator. Can we say carcinogen?
Sorry about none of my attachments working. I have been having difficulty with my server for the past week.

[violentrapture]

My goodness - throw in a couple uses of "synergy" and "heuristic" on that wave pallet material and you have a Dilbert moment. Not quite sure exactly what it is but sounds interesting.

Lead time on the boxes is going to depend on the material. The first few easy ones like the HDF, MDF and Fiberglass could probably be finished within a couple of weeks. The ACM/Honeycomb, Granite, Cherry (and other woods) could take awhile. We're being slammed like crazy right now in production (just landed a near $7m contract for Phase III of the Atlantis Resort) - I'll keep y'all updated as to progress though. I'd like to get all the raw material together first, then decide on the best way to go about constructing each enclosure.

I was also eyeing this TFRP (Translucent Fiber Reinforced Polymer) that we sell - some of it seems interesting because it's fiber mesh/resin backed with thick glass panels - glass is fairly dense and it's freaking strong with the FRP backing. Also you can do some really cool backlighting with it. Might throw it into the mix.

First step I think is to nail down a final list of materials to use, then get material sheet dimensions, make a db of everything including material specs and go from there.

~vR

[jwth2005]

Pleas keep us informed!!!This could change the way boxes are made!! HEHE a lil optimistic eh lol.. But still nonetheless cool As my next system will be a SQ system i want the best!

[jwth2005]

OK guys..,. Now that i have the lower frequency advice handled now i need mids and highs.. I want some REALLY good and clear soundingspeakers... Id like to go components all the way around.. 6.5s for the front and 6x8's for the rear... I want to amp them as well... so i need amp suggestions to go with that as well... I like the eclipse amp that has been mentioned above for the bass...so if there is any other good amp in there line up maybe i can stick with that??? But yea thats why i come here.. PPL that know more than me lol

[FormulaNERD]

mb quart, diamond audio, soundstream, boston acoustics, polk etc.

[mikegett]

I suggesting demoing the speakers. Sound is very subjective, so you can ask the same question 100 times and get 100 different answeres. If you can do the same with amps for the mids and highs, then I highly suggest it. The new eclilpse xa digital amps aren't on the market. I would suggest sticking to the older premium PA line of amps if you go eclipse. I have ran them for years and love the sound quality. In all honesty, the only amps I would not recomend is california and audiobauhn.

[jwth2005]

Yea id like to keep amps in the same family...

[acold7dusta]

blah dont get JBL either

[jwth2005]

hmm any reasons why???
Anyone who says no to a brand or yes.... pleas give reasons...

[violentrapture]

JBL makes some great stuff - Alma Gates took Best SQ at MECA ('05 I believe), first place Master Class and 2nd place IASCA Bass Boxing (1st place went to someone else from the JBL team) using JBL GTi/Power Series amps, GTi components, Pro horns and GTi subs.

Also the JBL 1200.1 is well regarded.

~vR

[jwth2005]

Thanks VR... I knew they werent poop!

[nickgonzo]

Yeah the BP series aka lego blocks are some serious amps.

My friend has had the BP 1200.1 running strong for about 4 years now. Those JBL/Crown amps are friggin beasts as well, lol.

IDK i respect anything coming out of the harmon/kardon factories.

[jwth2005]

So i heard a pair of Infinity 12's today... they sounded good....

they were these http://www.crutchfield.com/S-A65naibtNIN/c...=520&I=1081250W (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-A65naibtNIN/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=520&I=1081250W)

Thoughts???

[nickgonzo]

like i said, h/k puts out fine products... infinity is one of my fav mainstream car audio brands.

[jwth2005]

ANyone like these???
http://www.interfireaudio.com/subsIFB.html

[nickgonzo]

Honestly never heard of them, but i've been out of the car audio scene for a while if that means anything