E85 Performance

[BlackJack]

For those of you that were wondering.....

E85 (Ethanol blend) does carry a significantly higher octane rating, but adversely requires more fuel to prevent leaning out.

Do not attempt to run straight E85 in an Alero unless you tune for it.

For boosted applications, I'm running a 1/3 E85 mixed with 2/3 91 Unleaded, and trust me, makes one hell of a difference. The new turbo set up ran pretty well on 91, but once I dropped in the E-85 mix, the estimated octane boosted to 97 points, and it ran like a pure bat-outta-hell.

Coupled with the fact that the E85 cost $1.75 per gallon here, and 91 unleaded is about $2.85 per gallon, the mix also saves a bit of money.

Let me say this one more time DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS WITHOUT RETUNING

Cheers! -BlackJack-

[jackal2000]

so i cant go to the track and put some 104 in without tuning for it??

[BlackJack]

I wouldn't recommend it. Different octane ratings also come with different combustion properties. You can run it, but it wont really give you that much of a nudge unless you tweak your fuel/timing cells to go with it.

Dont forget, you can run quite a bit more timing with higher octane, and that's where you'll see most of your gains.

[Redog]

You can't run E85 in most cars on the road, including the Alero.

E85 will eat away all the gaskets, and in metals inside the motor (and gas tanks on older cars with metal gas tanks)

Of course this will not happen on one tank full, but it also won't take long to happen. The was a write-up about it in one of the car mags, I think it was Hot Rod, but I'm not sure

[BlackJack]

yeah, that's if you run straight E85, which I'm not....that's why I mixed instead of tuning for it straight.

I'm just going to leave it at this:

I'm not going to be responsible for what you do with your car as a result of using E85 in any mix. I'm just telling you what I've discovered that works with mine. Use at your own risk.

[Chopper]

Hi, I know this is an old tread but I just watned to make a few comments.
I have been running all my cars on E85 mixture the last 6 years. Mostly I have had about 20-30% E85 into the petrol. This is the mixture that gives the best effect. There is a significant reduction in exhaust emmisions as the car runs cleaner (this may not be totally applicable on cars with a cat but it saves the cat life). There is also a significant difference in effect and at the same time you get a better mileage. The reason for the higher effect with the E85 mixture is as BlackJack says the higher octane value. At the same time the energy content of E85 is lower which means that if you try to run on only E85 the car will be slower. With higher mixtures than 1/3 the fuel consumption will go up.
Technically what happens is that the injection system of all modern cars has a knock sensor that is sensing if the engine starts knocking. If it do the ignition time will be changed to a later setting until the engine stops knocking. The same thing happens the other way around too, the engine computer will try to set the ignition as early as possible to get the most power and highest mileage. So when you boost up the octane value with E85 the ignition timing could be moved to a better position which makes the engine run cleaner.
Here in Sweden there is quite common thet people running their cars on E85 mixture as the petrol isn't as cheap in Europe as in the US. ;-)
After my 6 years experience of running on the mixture I can say that there is no problems with this as far as I can see. It is good for the environment, it gives you more power and it saves your wallet.
Redod, what you says about gaskets and metal is applicable to Methanol, the fuel you use at the strip. Ethanol is the booze you drink. This said do not try to drink the E85, it contains 15% Petrol. :-D
What I said above is valid in Sweden and the rest of Europe and I guess it is in United States as well, but I can not guarantee anything.
I am just in the phase to convert my Alero 3.4 to run on 10% E85. It could be done in a lot of ways but the way I will do it is mainly to raise the fuel pressure. By the way, the only thing I have noticed on the downside if you fill up too much E85 is that the car will be a bit slower can be a bit harder to start in the coldest winter.

[Chopper]

The 10% should be 100%....
Sorry.

[Cliff8928]

Most cars newer than '88 should cope with E85 fairly well (before that there was NO ethanol in the gas). You can also get (fairly inexpensive) plug-in modules that go between the injectors and the factory harness and modify the signal to run E85.

[spyhunter]

You can't run E85 in most cars on the road, including the Alero.

E85 will eat away all the gaskets, and in metals inside the motor (and gas tanks on older cars with metal gas tanks)

Of course this will not happen on one tank full, but it also won't take long to happen. The was a write-up about it in one of the car mags, I think it was Hot Rod, but I'm not sure

Cars after 1988 are built to handle ethanol blended fuels. It's not going to eat away at your gaskets, and metals inside the motor.

E85 when trying to run it on an alero or most any other car, you have to recalibrate the PCM to run w/ it. Basically, retuning, hptuners does a great job of this. Since it has already been discussed you have to dump more of it, and it does have less bang per squirt, you have to dump even more fuel. Larger injectors come into play. I already got into an argument on gagt.com over this, people keep on saying the car won't run it. Recalibrate for larger and injectors, and E85 mixture through retuning and you'll end up with a car that you can add quite a bit of timing and make some nice power gains from it. Another side note, is that you should change your fuel filter after a couple tanks of the stuff, because it cleans out the varnishing in your fuel system. There's quite a few websites of people converting later model cars.

I'm always at a local shop here where I work on my ride at. We have converted most of the cars over to E85, such as an Evo, Datsun, 2 240sx's w/ sr20det swaps... amongst other randomness. Some of the cars have been runing E85 for over 6 months with no adverse effects. The biggest pain was just spending money on fuel injectors, and time on the dyno for tuning.

Of course some cars need a few extra things here and there, but I'm not giving a how to convert. It however isn't going to make your motor eat itself from the inside out, and isn't as horrifically deadly as some people are reading on the internet.

[spyhunter]

it's ethanol not methanol, GM has been planning on going E85 for years, evidence is in the PCM calibrations for the 2.4L motors. Hptuners confirmed that GM was playing w/ E85 before we even thought of running it here on the streets. Actually certain gov't cars, and state cars have been running the 'ish for years, they just had specific fueling sites to filler up.

[BlackJack]

hahaha, yeah I just read that argument on GAGT the other day. Some people just dont get it. You know, people are resistant to change once they're convinced of certain ideas. Back when I first started in this forum, everyone was all about what you COULDN'T do with the Alero. I think we've blown alot of those doubts out of the water since back then.

Long ago, I was talking about my build and goals over at GAGT, and the two biggest ass-hats that gave me shit were AaronGTR and jaketuff. Seems like they haven't changed much. Oh well, as long as they're satisfied with their 13's and 14's, good for them.

[sorrowfulkiller]

Wow... that'd be pretty nice to run on e85... too bad almost no where around here sells the shit.... and I'm in South Dakota for god sakes!

[jackal2000]

Long ago, I was talking about my build and goals over at GAGT, and the two biggest ass-hats that gave me shit were AaronGTR and jaketuff. Seems like they haven't changed much. Oh well, as long as they're satisfied with their 13's and 14's, good for them.

i find it amusing that he is supercharged but his best time 14.4 wtf :lol:

[jayson_waltz]

Most cars newer than '88 should cope with E85 fairly well (before that there was NO ethanol in the gas). You can also get (fairly inexpensive) plug-in modules that go between the injectors and the factory harness and modify the signal to run E85.
Definately not. my dads been a ford mech. for 26 years and hes got a few in that the inside of the engine is ate away from running E85 when they aren't supposed to. the E85 engines have more corrosion resistance than regular b\c E85 is really corrosive. this is also true for new cars, even blended some, b\c he got in a 2006 lincoln,forgot what it was sports car they don't make anymore, (bosses car to top that) that was running blend b\c it was cheaper but the engine was still getting ate away.

[Cliff8928]

Well, here's some info for the E85 conversions.

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=73061

http://www.flextek.com/

http://www.fullflexint.com/

[Satsuriku]

i find it amusing that he is supercharged but his best time 14.4 wtf :lol:

pwned!!! lol

[spyhunter]

Definately not. my dads been a ford mech. for 26 years and hes got a few in that the inside of the engine is ate away from running E85 when they aren't supposed to. the E85 engines have more corrosion resistance than regular b\c E85 is really corrosive. this is also true for new cars, even blended some, b\c he got in a 2006 lincoln,forgot what it was sports car they don't make anymore, (bosses car to top that) that was running blend b\c it was cheaper but the engine was still getting ate away.

must be a ford thing.

our shop has converted most of the cars to e85 and hasn't well seen anything asplode, eat away, die, leak, even on a late 70s datsun.

[spyhunter]

FullFlex recommendations...

http://www.fullflexint.com/images/spacer.gif
http://www.fullflexint.com/images/x.gif Checking your injector connectors.
IT is imperative to verify the type of injector your vehicle has.
(Click the connector to see a larger version)
http://www.fullflexint.com/old_website/images/connectors/all_master1.jpg
http://www.fullflexint.com/images/x.gif Spark Plugs and Spark Plug Cables:
They should be kept with the same thermal degree indicated by the engine manufacturer; this should not be altered. They should be changed at manufacturers recommended intervals.

http://www.fullflexint.com/images/x.gif Fuel, oil and engine oil filters:
They should be changed for the engine safety and user comfort sake. It is recommended to make the change at the first 625 miles after the Full Flex Gold installation, because the oil filter and fuel filter can be contaminated with the sludge caused by gasoline. From then on, the change should be made at manufacturers recommended intervals.

http://www.fullflexint.com/images/x.gif Engine:
In spite of the higher consumption per mile traveled, the ethanol is cleaner and does not cause problems and if used in an E85 mix it will promote better lubrication of the parts in contact with the mixture and thus, will increase the engine useful life and ensure a significant increase in fuel economy.
"The engine that runs on ethanol and gasoline is more economical, ensures a long useful life due to the low contamination of oil and most importantly, is pollution free".

http://www.fullflexint.com/images/x.gif Fuel Pump:
Check the fuel pump pressure and flow. These items are important for the good operation of the system. The fuel pump should be in accordance and within the standards set by the vehicle manufacturer. After confirming the compliance of the data above, you may proceed with the Full Flex Gold installation.
The use of ethanol reduces the vehicles original fuel pump useful life, Serious wear can occur due to the removing of the deposits left by the gasoline impurities in the fuel tank.

http://www.fullflexint.com/images/x.gif Injectors:
The injectors should not be cleaned .The injectors are gauged to run under the normal pressure of 3.0 bar, with 5% tolerance; a low tolerance that if not respected, can cause losses: increased consumption, poor vehicle performance, bumps while changing gears and difficulty to reach the maximum speed.

http://www.fullflexint.com/images/x.gif Polarity:
The polarity of the injectors is important; some vehicle manufacturers invert the feeding, thus causing problems when you have to install some equipment. However, Full Flex Gold recognizes the polarity automatically, as well as the injection nozzle resistance and the current used, thus avoiding problems during the product installation.

http://www.fullflexint.com/images/x.gif Oxygen sensor:
It should be in perfect operating condition, which means that submitted to an evaluation it should be oscillating between 50 and 950 mill volts, always bordering on minimum and maximum.

http://www.fullflexint.com/images/x.gif All other sensors:
Make sure that all other vehicle sensors are in good working condition, the full flex unit needs the proper data to run engine controls to allow normal driving conditions to be met.
http://www.fullflexint.com/images/x.gif Cold Start or Winter Driving
As no two vehicles are created the same with fuel management systems and fuel delivery systems one of the few thing that exists in a vehicle running an after market Bi Fuel converter system is some vehicle experience a hesitation on the normal start running E85. As there is no exact solution for this right now, what we have found that a simple solution is merely adding t to 6 gallons of gas to your E85 mix.

[jayson_waltz]

must be a ford thing.

our shop has converted most of the cars to e85 and hasn't well seen anything asplode, eat away, die, leak, even on a late 70s datsun.

huh. damn fords

[spyhunter]

so what is different in the ENGINE in cars that are produced with flexfuel capabilities? WHAT EXACTLY IS DIFFEERENT IN THE ENGINE THAT MAKES THEM CORRODE? Please somebody please don't say it's engine oil that's meant for E85, or some lsecret lubricant, I WILL laugh. I doubt they cast the engines any differently than convential engines of the same production run.

Someone enlighten me. PLEASE!

[Chopper]

Methanol is corrosive, Ethanol isn't.
Just face this! No fuel company in the world would dare to sell a fuel that would make your engine corrode without having big warning signs about it and I bet nobody have seen such a sign. They cannot take the risk to be sued.
I have driven my cars for 6 years with E85 blend without any problem. What could happen is that old deposits in the hoses, fuel pump and injectors will cause you problem in the beginning as they are coming loose. You can also see that an engine driven on E85 is cleaner inside. The build up of soot on the heads and on the pistons will not occur at all. You might need to change the oil more often as the E85 not contains as much energy as pure petrol and it therefore takes a bit longer time for the engine to come up to its working temperature.

During the 90's I was a design and test engineer at Saab in Sweden and I remember the conversion of cars for Brasil to be running on Methanol. This was a more complex thing as the Methanol was destroying different rubber material and plastics.

[spyhunter]

Methanol is corrosive, Ethanol isn't.
Just face this! No fuel company in the world would dare to sell a fuel that would make your engine corrode without having big warning signs about it and I bet nobody have seen such a sign. They cannot take the risk to be sued.
I have driven my cars for 6 years with E85 blend without any problem. What could happen is that old deposits in the hoses, fuel pump and injectors will cause you problem in the beginning as they are coming loose. You can also see that an engine driven on E85 is cleaner inside. The build up of soot on the heads and on the pistons will not occur at all. You might need to change the oil more often as the E85 not contains as much energy as pure petrol and it therefore takes a bit longer time for the engine to come up to its working temperature.

During the 90's I was a design and test engineer at Saab in Sweden and I remember the conversion of cars for Brasil to be running on Methanol. This was a more complex thing as the Methanol was destroying different rubber material and plastics.


Thank you so much for telling :) This is exactly what people don't understand.

[BlackJack]

that seems to be the biggest concern. varnishes and buildup on surfaces will most likely be deteriorated, and can cause clogged injectors, etc. over a period of time.

I'm running it x6 months so far with no problems yet, and will continue to run my mix until either something gets destroyed or else someone provides tangible proof that it WILL damage things down the road.

[spyhunter]

that seems to be the biggest concern. varnishes and buildup on surfaces will most likely be deteriorated, and can cause clogged injectors, etc. over a period of time.

I'm running it x6 months so far with no problems yet, and will continue to run my mix until either something gets destroyed or else someone provides tangible proof that it WILL damage things down the road.

The biggest thing to do would be to change your fuel filter after a few tank fulls, and then replace it again about 6 months down the road. Any build will eventually go through the fuel filter.