GM, Big 3, and Foreign

[TheEdgeofSanity]

i haven't really saw anything like this on the site so far so i decided to bring it up.

i come from a family that's always owned american-made cars, especially GM products. the other night, i saw this thing on tv and it was about the auto companies scanning sites like this and using the responses of people as customer service to improve their products. i'd like to know your general thoughts on how american and foreign companies compare in areas of pricing, quality, and performance.

hoping for many responses..happy posting

[antichrysler]

Well I too come from a family that has been almost GM exclusively for 40 years now. Between me, my grandparents and my dad we've had one Datsun and one Dodge that has been the exception. Well and the Alero put an end to us buying GM ever again (dad bought a Dodge Dakota, I bought a Mazda). But I think it's a really good way for automakers to see what people have to say. Of course if you phone them and say "Hey this car has this particular defect, x number of people on this forum have had the same issue" they'll still deny it. But it allows them to figure out how to improve their vehicles without admitting any guilt or fixing any of the problems with their current vehicles.

You can really tell by the general vibe when you go on these forums. I know I found myself from here to the Mazda forum on here the posts are always about how to solve this known issue, or what is my car worth. On the Mazda it's all about how to add this or that feature, our mods section is bigger than our repairs section.

[TheEdgeofSanity]

Well I too come from a family that has been almost GM exclusively for 40 years now. Between me, my grandparents and my dad we've had one Datsun and one Dodge that has been the exception. Well and the Alero put an end to us buying GM ever again (dad bought a Dodge Dakota, I bought a Mazda). But I think it's a really good way for automakers to see what people have to say. Of course if you phone them and say "Hey this car has this particular defect, x number of people on this forum have had the same issue" they'll still deny it. But it allows them to figure out how to improve their vehicles without admitting any guilt or fixing any of the problems with their current vehicles.

You can really tell by the general vibe when you go on these forums. I know I found myself from here to the Mazda forum on here the posts are always about how to solve this known issue, or what is my car worth. On the Mazda it's all about how to add this or that feature, our mods section is bigger than our repairs section.


i'd have to agree with you on the high amounts of repairs. gm's cars have been toughy lately. my parents own an '05 vette and its been in the dealership getting repairs more than we've had it at home. faulty brakes, battery, and doorseals

[antichrysler]

I suppose my biggest complaint right now about GM, or any domestic manufacturer for that matter is that it feels like they stopped innovating back in the 70's. All 3 have kinda had this attitude of "we're big.... we're huge... and no one can overthrow us" and it explains alot of the huge safety recalls (Pinto, 80's GM Trucks, GM's ignitions catching fire, Dodge/Fords seats flying out the back of their vans, etc). The big 3 don't really have any room to expand or grow, so instead they've been expanding their profit margins by putting in cheaper parts. This steady decline in quality over the years is what has let automakers like Toyota surpass GM for largest automobile manufacturer.

When you add it up the foreign market (Japanese and German are the two big ones) you see new designs coming out, you see new technology, and you see innovation. Even putting reliability and repairs aside, the innovation in domestic vehicles just isn't there. All they're really doing is re-inventing the 60's and 70's and playing on peoples ideas of "when I was young I had a Camaro" or "My dad had a Mustang" or "I used to help my dad fix up his Charger". I mean even on Aleromod, how many people on here actually bought their Alero brand new. That's just my 2c.

[Redog]

Really GM might look at this site?

It seems to me that GM has the advanced thinking, but primtaive tools. Look at the DOD motors back in the early 80's. It was a great idea, just like it is now, but GM lost a lot of money, becuase they had to replace every DOD motor with a regular V8.

One thing that will really help GM a lot, axe Saturn and bring back Oldsmobile. I know that's been said soooooo many times, esp by Oldsman, but it's the truth. GM can't be cute with it either. They can't bring back the models under a different brand. I'm talking about no Chevy 88, Saturn Cutlass, GMC Bravada, etc. Chrysler might have made it work with the Lancer (Dodge Lancer in the 80's, Mitsu Lancer today) but it GM were to make the Oldsmobile models, under other names, they will fail more than they are doing with Saturn.

Think of the marketing plans for that. The rebirth of Oldsmobile, bringing back such names as the 88, 98, Cutlass, Omega, and so on. Hell you could have a new Cutlass follow the body of the new Impala, and make a new 442. Of course, after GM makes that a RWD car.

That's another thing, what is GM's hard on with FWD cars? Chrysler made FWD cars only for 20 years (except the Viper) and when they started the RWD cars like the 300C and Charger, they started making a profit. Make the name "SS" mean something again. If you had an SS back in the 60's and 70's you were the baddest motherfucker on the street. Now having an SS might mean you have a S/C under the hood of your 4 cyl Cobalt.

Those 3 things and major, but if GM did that and fixed a lot of little things and had less recalls, they would come out on top.

BTW Japanese cars also get recalled, but you never see recalls about them on the news. The wife's car has been recalled 3 times, but she always got letters. "Nissan makes a better car than GM, the Japanese make a better car" That was a quote from the asshole-in-law. Considering the cars in question are made in TN (last time I checked TN is in the US) and they compare all GM cars to the 1974 Chevy Vega (one of the top 10 worse car of all time) his statement means less to me than he does

[misslindseysue]

FWD gets better fuel economy. GM has said that the RWD Impala and Monte might be done for before they exist because of CAFE. And as much as anyone wants to deny it, people buy Saturns and they weren't buying Oldsmobiles.

[TheEdgeofSanity]

Really GM might look at this site?

It seems to me that GM has the advanced thinking, but primtaive tools. Look at the DOD motors back in the early 80's. It was a great idea, just like it is now, but GM lost a lot of money, becuase they had to replace every DOD motor with a regular V8.

One thing that will really help GM a lot, axe Saturn and bring back Oldsmobile. I know that's been said soooooo many times, esp by Oldsman, but it's the truth. GM can't be cute with it either. They can't bring back the models under a different brand. I'm talking about no Chevy 88, Saturn Cutlass, GMC Bravada, etc. Chrysler might have made it work with the Lancer (Dodge Lancer in the 80's, Mitsu Lancer today) but it GM were to make the Oldsmobile models, under other names, they will fail more than they are doing with Saturn.

Think of the marketing plans for that. The rebirth of Oldsmobile, bringing back such names as the 88, 98, Cutlass, Omega, and so on. Hell you could have a new Cutlass follow the body of the new Impala, and make a new 442. Of course, after GM makes that a RWD car.

That's another thing, what is GM's hard on with FWD cars? Chrysler made FWD cars only for 20 years (except the Viper) and when they started the RWD cars like the 300C and Charger, they started making a profit. Make the name "SS" mean something again. If you had an SS back in the 60's and 70's you were the baddest mothereffer on the street. Now having an SS might mean you have a S/C under the hood of your 4 cyl Cobalt.

Those 3 things and major, but if GM did that and fixed a lot of little things and had less recalls, they would come out on top.

BTW Japanese cars also get recalled, but you never see recalls about them on the news. The wife's car has been recalled 3 times, but she always got letters. "Nissan makes a better car than GM, the Japanese make a better car" That was a quote from the asshole-in-law. Considering the cars in question are made in TN (last time I checked TN is in the US) and they compare all GM cars to the 1974 Chevy Vega (one of the top 10 worse car of all time) his statement means less to me than he does

true true....the big three need to re-invent themselves with new concepts and styling. but, just to let you know, GM is attempting to bring back some meaning to the "SS" name. for example, the new chevy equinox with the 3.6 L is going to be called "equinox sport" instead of "equinox SS". I agree that Olds should make a comeback, although i doubt it due to GM having so many nameplates. Personally, get rid of Saab and Hummer and bring back Oldsmobile.

[antichrysler]

See this is exactly what I was talking about. Bring back Oldsmobile. I hate to say it but why? Yeah the Aleros are a nice looking car, same with the Auroras. But realistically what did Oldsmobile bring to the table? Maybe before they were bought by GM they were innovative, but since then they've just kinda "been there". I don't know about you guys, but I bought my Alero b/c of my grandpas experiences with his and it was hella cheap for what it had.

GM needs fresh thinking, new ideas, and above all else they need to build a car that people want to buy and that people will associate with quality. The "GM Committment" to bring more value to the customer isn't what's going to bring them back to number one, unless they're talking about better reliability.

I agree with you about the SS. It doesn't mean anything anymore. Whoop de doo a Cobalt SS with a 2.4L 4 cylinder that gets 170hp.

If it were up to me I would axe Saturn, Hummer, Saab, Isuzu, Daewoo, Buick, Chevy Trucks, keep Oldsmobile axed, and then axe the shitty models that no one buys like the Vibe, Torrent, Equinox, HHR. The only one in there I would even possibly give a second look to keeping is Hummer.

I also don't understand why everyone is going to automatic. Atleast make a standard, or if you're not going to atleast put a CVT in some of your cars.

[Redog]

And as much as anyone wants to deny it, people buy Saturns and they weren't buying Oldsmobiles.

Sorry but I (and the fact that Saturn hasn't turned a profit since birth) will have to disagree with you on that one.

And I didn't know that people that buy RWD cars with 300hp are looking for good MPG

[rustyballs_69]

Yeah if you want 300hp I don't think your to concerned about fuel mileage.

I think if GM would stop make such ass ugly cars and put the quality in them as they say they do their sales would go back up. I hate ford more than anything but I hate to say their half ton trucks look way better than the silverado.

[antichrysler]

Sorry but I (and the fact that Saturn hasn't turned a profit since birth) will have to disagree with you on that one.

And I didn't know that people that buy RWD cars with 300hp are looking for good MPG

No, but the 300hp market doesn't want a FWD car. The least they can do is make a standard version instead of just all auto.

[MixtapeMessiah]

Indeed I agree with redog, axe saturn. I heard in a few years buick as gonna get the boot too. Bring back Oldsmobile, and with chevy the ss models need to be better than a frickin 205 hp s/c cobalt, bring back the meaning of the term SS how it used to be to scare the crap out of competitors. Its the only way GM can do something before eventually they get over ran and/or bought out by a foreign company. In the rwd class gm is lacking a lot, they barely are gonna make the impala rwd after how long? I remember the early 90's model impala ss were frickin dope! GM is gonna have to do something quick and I hope they come and look at this website, theres a lot of people on this board that could give some info and help out GM in many many ways.

[jayson_waltz]

My family has been buying fords for about twice my age. The Alero is our first GM in probably 30 years, and though it hasn't really been a huge problem, isn't holding up as good as our fords. Wierd security problems, engines crapping out, bad milage, and lots of other small things. We have never had ONE problems with the fords that we have owned. Maybe its just that we take really good care of vehicles, i dunno. But for how many people say GM is better than ford,i can't agree. But for the foreign part, if my dad didn't work for ford we'd probably be driving imports. I probably wouldn't have the Alero, more like the Eclipse or turbo Sentra we were looking at. But we went with domestic only b\c it was cheaper. I won't do that again, too many annoying problems.

[DOHC_tuner]

1. make more standard trannyz available on coupes
2. Bring back the OLDZ name with the Alero as the OSV
3. Improve the quality of the materials used to produce
4. STOP making family cars with High horse power engines, and put those engines in a coupe sport car. 3400 and 3800 for example.
5. People now and days buy a car for performance and styling, if they want a pussy motor they get a sport utility vehicle such as a small tracker or izuzu suzuki.
more to add but just got home from work so maybe later

[antichrysler]

Well I know my dad for his company fleet (about 40 vehicles) has abandoned GM solely because of how GM responded to the issues I had with my car. He's switched to Dodge himself, and as much as he hates to say it large domestic trucks suck. When his Dakota has a V8 in a 1/4 ton and has less power and towing capacity than the 4 cylinder 3 tons he has. It's going to be interesting seeing how the new Hinos are going to hold up, he just bought 6 3 ton Hinos last week so we'll see. Especially with fuel prices and the fact the Hino gets 1.5x the fuel economy of the Dakota

[TheEdgeofSanity]

Indeed I agree with redog, axe saturn. I heard in a few years buick as gonna get the boot too. Bring back Oldsmobile, and with chevy the ss models need to be better than a frickin 205 hp s/c cobalt, bring back the meaning of the term SS how it used to be to scare the crap out of competitors. Its the only way GM can do something before eventually they get over ran and/or bought out by a foreign company. In the rwd class gm is lacking a lot, they barely are gonna make the impala rwd after how long? I remember the early 90's model impala ss were frickin dope! GM is gonna have to do something quick and I hope they come and look at this website, theres a lot of people on this board that could give some info and help out GM in many many ways.

hopefully buick doesn't get the boot. i mean, yeah, their cars are geared for senior citizens but they could turn the nameplate around and bring back the Grand National. i hate to see the nameplates that have been around since the beginning of the auto industry diasppear and be replaced by foreign companies that spit out tin cans that they call luxury cars. also, GM is making a big attempt at bring back rwd with the newer zeta platform for nameplates like chevy and pontiac.

[TheEdgeofSanity]

My family has been buying fords for about twice my age. The Alero is our first GM in probably 30 years, and though it hasn't really been a huge problem, isn't holding up as good as our fords. Wierd security problems, engines crapping out, bad milage, and lots of other small things. We have never had ONE problems with the fords that we have owned. Maybe its just that we take really good care of vehicles, i dunno. But for how many people say GM is better than ford,i can't agree. But for the foreign part, if my dad didn't work for ford we'd probably be driving imports. I probably wouldn't have the Alero, more like the Eclipse or turbo Sentra we were looking at. But we went with domestic only b\c it was cheaper. I won't do that again, too many annoying problems.

one question. would you drive around in a ford 500 and feel cool? probabily not. ford has a tendancy to make their cars seem sterile and appeal to those who are entering the "nursing home" days...not that chyrsler and gm aren't sometimes guilty for that too. *cough.buick lacrosse.cough*

[jayson_waltz]

^ i can't feel cool in a five-hundered, its my grandma's car. But the AWD it fun to spin around with on ice. Can't feel cool in any other ford either besides a full size pickup. I, myself, would never buy a ford.

[TheEdgeofSanity]

^ i can't feel cool in a five-hundered, its my grandma's car. But the AWD it fun to spin around with on ice. Can't feel cool in any other ford either besides a full size pickup. I, myself, would never buy a ford.

haha, ice can be fun in any car... well, hopefully you keep with some domestic vehicle. we should all hope that quality and styling imporves. if anybody high-up in the big 3 has a brain, they'll figure out how the foreign companies make appealing cars and bring it to a step or more above..

[sandstoneolds20]

Okay, with all this talk I have to ask this. Someone mentsioned that domestic trucks suck. Well can a Toyota or a Nissan pull my 30 foot Horse trailier with 12 fifteen hundrend pound cows on it? Do they come with a Duramax, Cummins, or Powerstroke Diesel or how about a V-10? Sure the foreign trucks probably are great, for the city. But here in the heartland they ain't WORTH A SHIT!!! As for the GM, axe Saturn, bring back Olds, get ride of Hummer and Saab! We all know that they new Saturns are just relabeled Oldsmobiles!

[TheEdgeofSanity]

Okay, with all this talk I have to ask this. Someone mentsioned that domestic trucks suck. Well can a Toyota or a Nissan pull my 30 foot Horse trailier with 12 fifteen hundrend pound cows on it? Do they come with a Duramax, Cummins, or Powerstroke Diesel or how about a V-10? Sure the foreign trucks probably are great, for the city. But here in the heartland they ain't WORTH A SHIT!!! As for the GM, axe Saturn, bring back Olds, get ride of Hummer and Saab! We all know that they new Saturns are just relabeled Oldsmobiles!

finally! we have a 22 ft. boat and our '01 Suburban 1500 tow's it like its not even there. we tried to tow it with my uncle's toyota and had trouble making it 3 miles (trans overheated)

i was also put out that someone said domestic trucks suck...

[DOHC_tuner]

American motors have the lead in trucks but foreign motors lead in cars. Look at the new camaro, they werent even gonna continue the camaro but its good that they did. when someone wants a sport car they think foreign name brands unless its a mustang or "camaro". So basically bring in more american sport cars with style.

[Oldsman]

ok what is one of the biggest problems with GM....................their dealerships.........PERIOD. hell Hyundia treats their customers with more respect and common courtesy than any GM dealer i have been too. Dodge is right there with GM same with Ford. I know for a fact Hyundia and toyota make it a big deal that the dealership takes care of you.

If you listen to what everyone says they have problems with their GM and get shitty service.

For one I honestly would love to see GM sell the Olds name and let someone take it and make some real Oldsmobiles. GM would screw it up.

I saw someone mention that Olds didn't do crap after GM bought them. Honestly this person is a MORON and should read his history.

Olds joined GM in 1908 and since then have made the automatic tranny, FWD production car, fuelinjected turbo motor, air bags, navagation system, cell phones, in vehicle entertainment all in a production car. that is just to name a few.

Besides in the words of the GM people they are not an American car company but a global car company. GM does not give a rats ass what any of us think. an example............

remember when Ford was going to make the probe the new musteng and the mustang people threw a shit fit and raised hell and ford decided not to do that. they listened.

GM annouces they are going to axe Olds and people raised hell and sent a petition and nothing changed their mind. GM also annouced they were axing the F-body. the camaro and firebird community sent a petition with over 200,000 sigs and also you had the camaro clubs raising hell did GM listen.............NO. now they have nothing to compete against the Mustang. the GTO bombed and we all know why.

i could go on and on with stories and example of what GM has done wrong but Nick's server would blow up and so would my fingers.

[Oldsman]

Okay, with all this talk I have to ask this. Someone mentsioned that domestic trucks suck. Well can a Toyota or a Nissan pull my 30 foot Horse trailier with 12 fifteen hundrend pound cows on it? Do they come with a Duramax, Cummins, or Powerstroke Diesel or how about a V-10? Sure the foreign trucks probably are great, for the city. But here in the heartland they ain't WORTH A SHIT!!! As for the GM, axe Saturn, bring back Olds, get ride of Hummer and Saab! We all know that they new Saturns are just relabeled Oldsmobiles!

that is why my dad bought a dodge with the cummins to haul his 40ft car trailer. total weight with the 72 442 and the living quarters is 22,000 lbs

[Oldsman]

American motors have the lead in trucks but foreign motors lead in cars. Look at the new camaro, they werent even gonna continue the camaro but its good that they did. when someone wants a sport car they think foreign name brands unless its a mustang or "camaro". So basically bring in more american sport cars with style.

last i heard was the zeta platform was scrapped and the new camaro and GTO would not be coming out. unless they are doing another platform.

[Oldsnut]

Holy Crap you just made to much sense there Scot! That is why GM is screwing up so bad, they have no common sense. God, GM burns my ass.

I recently posted about a mod that I did to my Aurora, to get correct answer about paint codes from these morons in service and parts was nearly impossible. I went to Caddy, Chevy, Buick dealerships and I felt like a stepchild, it was like a what, an Oldsmobile, alright hang on.

[MixtapeMessiah]

one question. would you drive around in a ford 500 and feel cool? probabily not. ford has a tendancy to make their cars seem sterile and appeal to those who are entering the "nursing home" days...not that chyrsler and gm aren't sometimes guilty for that too. *cough.buick lacrosse.cough*

all the 500 is is the taurus,

and if they brought back the grand national we'd see a bunch of old people killing themselves cause they were 12 second stock cars with a huge ass turbo on it lol.

[MixtapeMessiah]

last i heard was the zeta platform was scrapped and the new camaro and GTO would not be coming out. unless they are doing another platform.

Ive been hearing that from everyone but on the chevy website they said its a go, I guess just google it and see what comes up, probably just some mustang owners who are passing around rumors lol

[misslindseysue]

My brother works at a Chevy dealership, and they already have an order for a Camaro.


As far as people not caring about mpg... They might not now, but gas keeps going up. Those 300hp gas guzzlers don't sell like a Camry - it's a lower volume. But the key is CAFE - read the news at all? If the new fuel economy stuff goes through you'll see lots of cars going FWD, getting smaller engines, etc.

[MixtapeMessiah]

each v8 has a gas guzzler tax on it thats a fuckin shitload of dough. There will always be v8's tho, probably just a hybrid version tho, cuz toyota is makin a v6 hybrid with 400 hp, along with lexus with a v8 model

[Cliff8928]

Sorry but I (and the fact that Saturn hasn't turned a profit since birth) will have to disagree with you on that one.

And I didn't know that people that buy RWD cars with 300hp are looking for good MPG

Well, Saturn is bound to turn a profit now since they don't have anything uniquely theirs anymore like the originals. Not that they were good mind you, but walking into a saturn dealer now is just a US version of an Opel dealer.

Oh, and 300HP can net some decent fuel economy these days. Most of the LS1/2/4 cars get 26 highway MPGs.

Holy Crap you just made to much sense there Scot! That is why GM is screwing up so bad, they have no common sense. God, GM burns my ass.

I recently posted about a mod that I did to my Aurora, to get correct answer about paint codes from these morons in service and parts was nearly impossible. I went to Caddy, Chevy, Buick dealerships and I felt like a stepchild, it was like a what, an Oldsmobile, alright hang on.

I don't know if it's per dealer or what, but I got great service when I took my car in for any issues that were covered under warranty.

each v8 has a gas guzzler tax on it thats a fuckin shitload of dough. There will always be v8's tho, probably just a hybrid version tho, cuz toyota is makin a v6 hybrid with 400 hp, along with lexus with a v8 model

Not all the V8s have the gas guzzler tax, it depends on their MPG and EPA size classsification. 'Vettes don't have it, neither did the 6-speed GTOs for example.

[antichrysler]

Up here we have rebates for fuel efficient cars. We don't really punish you for buying a V8 like they do down there.

And yes I will agree with you on the dealerships. If Olds started again but was made by Nissan, Mazda, or Honda I would consider buying it. GM is what destroyed Olds. They really have to learn how to treat their customers.

[TheEdgeofSanity]

last i heard was the zeta platform was scrapped and the new camaro and GTO would not be coming out. unless they are doing another platform.

nope, zeta platform's alive and well. as far as i know, its being used in the pontiac g8 (basicly the Grand Prix) and the camaro is going to be available late 2009.

[Redog]

If the new fuel economy stuff goes through you'll see lots of cars going FWD, getting smaller engines, etc.

Yeah and it will last for 15 years or so, just like after the fuel shortages in the 1974 ;)

Then the motors will get bigger again ;)

[antichrysler]

Yeah and it will last for 15 years or so, just like after the fuel shortages in the 1974 ;)

Then the motors will get bigger again ;)

Yeah but you gotta realize the only reason why we still have fuel left is because we started conserving what we had. It's more than just cars though ti's energy efficient electronics, appliances, etc. The only way we will have fuel in the future is to make efforts to conserve it now. There's only a finite amount to go around.

[Redog]

Well the bottom line is GM's flex fuel vechlies aren't really all they are cracked up to be.

Conversation is a good thing, but Flex fuel, the thing that GM is pushing, (Ford too) may use less oil by running on a corn by-product, but in turn cause more greenhouse gases than cars did back in the 1950's

[antichrysler]

True. That is to be seen. I really would like to see GM bring back the electric car they had in the mid 90's. That's probably the best thing I've ever seen them design.

[Mach1]

This is the first thread that i've wanted to post on in a while.
Did you guys see that most of GM's newer models (Vue, Aura, Enclave, etc) are getting good reviews from almost everybody. Even Consumer Reports (-GASP-). Get this, they said that the v6 in the Acadia was smooth. I like to read what CR says about GM cars, and one of the most frequent complaints they have is how the engines are "coarse and unrefined" (excluding the northstar V8 and a few other engines). Not to mention they said that the (Acadia's) ride was also smooth and (i think) compliant (or some other good word like refined or something). Also one of the latest car and driver mags did a test drive in the new Vue and basically said the ride was great and the steering BMW-like. Then they talked about how the interior was the class leader or something. The only complaints they had were that they thought it was too heavy (I think like 4100 lbs give or take) and that it could get pricey, with top of the line models reaching into the $30,000+ range. But that's just bitching. Basically, it's a great car, and yeah yeah I know that it's just a rebadge Opel and so is the Aura, but they're good cars none the less.
And don't think that im glorifying the fact Gm makes cars that at least compete with the competition now, but it's a big step in the right direction. Yeah i'd love for everybody to say "this lexus is ok but I think that the Cadillac is the better car overall" or "I like this Camry but Consumer reports says that the Malibu is a better car", but right now i'm just happy that I'm not reading some car and driver comparison with the GM entry in last or next to last place.

[Cliff8928]

Well the bottom line is GM's flex fuel vechlies aren't really all they are cracked up to be.

Sure they are. They're A massive tax break for the automakers by selling an "alternative fuel" vehicle.

True. That is to be seen. I really would like to see GM bring back the electric car they had in the mid 90's. That's probably the best thing I've ever seen them design.

The EV1 and Electric S10 (the two solely electric GM vehicles that were produced) were mainly due to a regulation in CA that said that all the automakers had to produce a ZEV in order to sell ANY cars there. They probably would've taken off better if they were marketed better and designed more mainstream. That and if all of the corporate people would've allowed it.

Basically, it's a great car, and yeah yeah I know that it's just a rebadge Opel and so is the Aura, but they're good cars none the less.
And don't think that im glorifying the fact Gm makes cars that at least compete with the competition now, but it's a big step in the right direction. Yeah i'd love for everybody to say "this lexus is ok but I think that the Cadillac is the better car overall" or "I like this Camry but Consumer reports says that the Malibu is a better car", but right now i'm just happy that I'm not reading some car and driver comparison with the GM entry in last or next to last place.

Saturn being a re-badged Opel isn't a bad thing. It's just too bad that they won't abandon their saturn name and just sell them for what they are as Opels. I actually wouldn't mind having an Astra if it makes it to the US with the turbo ECOtec engine, but I'll keep the Alero.

[Mach1]

For me, what I don't like most about saturn is the emblem, that red thing. And they need a new image. They've got to, i don't know, put a little more testosterone in their advertising. And "Saturn" isn't really the perfect choice for a name but you could work with it i guess. But apparently they're not going for that type of image (the one we want them to have). It's more like their trying to be volkswagonish, which is, i guess, kinda like sensible but "hip" (they'll still have to work on the hip thing). At least thats what i'm kinda getting from their latest advertising.

[Daytona]

I suppose my biggest complaint right now about GM, or any domestic manufacturer for that matter is that it feels like they stopped innovating back in the 70's. All 3 have kinda had this attitude of "we're big.... we're huge... and no one can overthrow us" and it explains alot of the huge safety recalls (Pinto, 80's GM Trucks, GM's ignitions catching fire, Dodge/Fords seats flying out the back of their vans, etc). The big 3 don't really have any room to expand or grow, so instead they've been expanding their profit margins by putting in cheaper parts. This steady decline in quality over the years is what has let automakers like Toyota surpass GM for largest automobile manufacturer.

When you add it up the foreign market (Japanese and German are the two big ones) you see new designs coming out, you see new technology, and you see innovation. Even putting reliability and repairs aside, the innovation in domestic vehicles just isn't there. All they're really doing is re-inventing the 60's and 70's and playing on peoples ideas of "when I was young I had a Camaro" or "My dad had a Mustang" or "I used to help my dad fix up his Charger". I mean even on Aleromod, how many people on here actually bought their Alero brand new. That's just my 2c.

I agree 100% with everything you said here.

And I did custom order my Alero direct from the factory, thank you very much.

[misslindseysue]

I also bought mine brand new - but I picked it off the lot.

[antichrysler]

The EV1 was a great invention. Yeah it was for a CA regulation but GM didn't want it to succeed because of it's low maintenance. All of the money GM makes in their vehicles is after the sale and the EV1 just wasn't profitable. But if it was mass produced, battery technology was improved, and GM actually let people BUY the car after the lease it would have been a hit. Especially in large urban centers where people only commute to work and back.

[TheEdgeofSanity]

The EV1 was a great invention. Yeah it was for a CA regulation but GM didn't want it to succeed because of it's low maintenance. All of the money GM makes in their vehicles is after the sale and the EV1 just wasn't profitable. But if it was mass produced, battery technology was improved, and GM actually let people BUY the car after the lease it would have been a hit. Especially in large urban centers where people only commute to work and back.

the only problem with these alternative fuel vehicles is that they're almost as bad for the enviroment as petroleum-running engines. like somebody said, the ethanol gives off a ton of greenhouse gasses and will cause food-cost to jump because we eat corn and yeah. battery vehicles are bad too. i'll try to find this article that talks about a lithium battery plant in canada that produces batteries for the Prius and how there's a 10 mile deadzone around the plant because of the acid rain from the battery by-products. the only thing that doesn't have bad enviromental problems is the hydrogen engine---but they explode so thats not good too.

[TheEdgeofSanity]

This is the first thread that i've wanted to post on in a while.
Did you guys see that most of GM's newer models (Vue, Aura, Enclave, etc) are getting good reviews from almost everybody. Even Consumer Reports (-GASP-). Get this, they said that the v6 in the Acadia was smooth. I like to read what CR says about GM cars, and one of the most frequent complaints they have is how the engines are "coarse and unrefined" (excluding the northstar V8 and a few other engines). Not to mention they said that the (Acadia's) ride was also smooth and (i think) compliant (or some other good word like refined or something). Also one of the latest car and driver mags did a test drive in the new Vue and basically said the ride was great and the steering BMW-like. Then they talked about how the interior was the class leader or something. The only complaints they had were that they thought it was too heavy (I think like 4100 lbs give or take) and that it could get pricey, with top of the line models reaching into the $30,000+ range. But that's just bitching. Basically, it's a great car, and yeah yeah I know that it's just a rebadge Opel and so is the Aura, but they're good cars none the less.
And don't think that im glorifying the fact Gm makes cars that at least compete with the competition now, but it's a big step in the right direction. Yeah i'd love for everybody to say "this lexus is ok but I think that the Cadillac is the better car overall" or "I like this Camry but Consumer reports says that the Malibu is a better car", but right now i'm just happy that I'm not reading some car and driver comparison with the GM entry in last or next to last place.

yeah, i saw that in the news...its nice to finally become competitive again. if only more vehicles could get these reviews....

[antichrysler]

the only problem with these alternative fuel vehicles is that they're almost as bad for the enviroment as petroleum-running engines. like somebody said, the ethanol gives off a ton of greenhouse gasses and will cause food-cost to jump because we eat corn and yeah. battery vehicles are bad too. i'll try to find this article that talks about a lithium battery plant in canada that produces batteries for the Prius and how there's a 10 mile deadzone around the plant because of the acid rain from the battery by-products. the only thing that doesn't have bad enviromental problems is the hydrogen engine---but they explode so thats not good too.

Well yeah, it's a trade off. To make something you have to take it from somewhere else. So in the end the batteries may not be good for the environment, but add up the less amount of pollutants in the air. Which one is worse, depends on your opinion. I will say that battery technology needs alot of refinement before it is 100% environmentally friendly.

[leroBob]

Corn costs go up?? u serious?? Do you have any clue how much the government susidizes it. The Gov. By's shit tons of of corn from farmers because they grow too much but if they grow less they cant make enough money so the government sets up contracts to buy a certain amount of the surplus. then the gov has silos os Corn that they are just holding (cant burn it then peole cry we are waisitng it, can't sell it on the market other countries would bitch that we are flooding the global market) so we end up paying tax dollars to store all types of over produced crops.

[antichrysler]

Corn costs go up?? u serious?? Do you have any clue how much the government susidizes it. The Gov. By's shit tons of of corn from farmers because they grow too much but if they grow less they cant make enough money so the government sets up contracts to buy a certain amount of the surplus. then the gov has silos os Corn that they are just holding (cant burn it then peole cry we are waisitng it, can't sell it on the market other countries would bitch that we are flooding the global market) so we end up paying tax dollars to store all types of over produced crops.

Reminds me of our softwood lumber.

[TheEdgeofSanity]

Corn costs go up?? u serious?? Do you have any clue how much the government susidizes it. The Gov. By's shit tons of of corn from farmers because they grow too much but if they grow less they cant make enough money so the government sets up contracts to buy a certain amount of the surplus. then the gov has silos os Corn that they are just holding (cant burn it then peole cry we are waisitng it, can't sell it on the market other countries would bitch that we are flooding the global market) so we end up paying tax dollars to store all types of over produced crops.

yeah, but after the country convinces people to switch to ethanol, those surpluses get used up pretty fast and eventually 20 years down the road, we're facing a food shortage because corn is used to feed livestock and as a base ingredient in many processed foods. demand up = cost up

[zoL]

Biodiesel is the only thing that makes sense for an "alternative" fuel.

[SIUlero]

yeah, but after the country convinces people to switch to ethanol, those surpluses get used up pretty fast and eventually 20 years down the road, we're facing a food shortage because corn is used to feed livestock and as a base ingredient in many processed foods. demand up = cost up

The government also pays farmers to not use some of their land, in order to keep surplus down and demand higher. It's all controlled. All that has to be done to meet increased demand is for the land to be farmed again. Demand up + supply up = same cost

Also, when corn grows, it absorbs CO2, the greenhouse gas everybody's afraid of with ethanol. You burn it in your engine, it's re-absorbed by vegetation...it's a cycle that prevents extra CO2 from entering the atmosphere. When you burn gasoline however, you'er reintroducing greenhouse gasses that have been locked away from the air for millions of years. Which sounds more harsh on the environment now?

[Cliff8928]

Well, I run E85 right now in my Beretta (3400). It's cheaper, but not enough to offset the fuel economy difference. But, the exhaust doesn't smell like with gasoline, it almost has no smell at all. And if at least some of that money is going back to the US farmers rather than the oil tycoons etc. that's better too...

[TheEdgeofSanity]

Well, I run E85 right now in my Beretta (3400). It's cheaper, but not enough to offset the fuel economy difference. But, the exhaust doesn't smell like with gasoline, it almost has no smell at all. And if at least some of that money is going back to the US farmers rather than the oil tycoons etc. that's better too...

is that ok to be running in a 3400? i heard it eats up the plastic components of the engine.

[Cliff8928]

Well, the engine has to be tuned for it for starters, it takes something like 40% more fuel? Most every engine since 1988 can work just fine with ethanol. I believe Methanol is the one that hurts the plastic parts.

[leroBob]

Plus their are studies i have read that say it takes almost a Gallon of fossil fuel to creat one Gallon of ethanol gas.

[SIUlero]

Plus their are studies i have read that say it takes almost a Gallon of fossil fuel to creat one Gallon of ethanol gas.

Those aren't studies so much as speculation. They assume that farm equipment takes loads of fuel to run, and ignore the fact that farmers use bio-diesel and ethanol where possible. Which only makes sense, since it is created from their products...money back in their pockets.

[TheEdgeofSanity]

Well, the engine has to be tuned for it for starters, it takes something like 40% more fuel? Most every engine since 1988 can work just fine with ethanol. I believe Methanol is the one that hurts the plastic parts.

so does that mean you can only run ethanol in ur beretta now? we don't have any ethanol stations in my area anyway.

[Cliff8928]

If i run gas it just runs REALLY rich. I could get an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and lower the pressure for gas too...