Redog v Jackel

[Redog]

Here is the video of our race.

This was the first run, Jon and I raced twice.

The first time Jon's car was faster by .025 seconds but my R/T was .185 seconds faster, giving me a magrin of victory of .1602 seconds.

The second race was tighter at the line, Jon was .039 seconds faster than me but my R/T was only .065 faster and I won that race by only .0267 seconds. He was right there.

Jon's car is impressive on the 1/4 mile. Both times my 60', 330', 1/8 mile, and 1000' were all faster, but his 1/4 mile time was faster than mine.

It wasn't soupy, but it still was a bit humid out. That killed the times. If it was less humid like it was all week here, we both would have been in the 14's easy.

My times today were, in order, 15.302, 15.325, 15.272, 15.322 (on brakes) 15.250, and 15.271

I didn't catch all Jon's or Mitch's times

[Redog]

Vid 1, heading up to the staging lanes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wWhFDbnw_w

Vid 2, the big race

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nESB2Wkryw

Vid 3, Mitch loses to the SCB Cutlass that I took out and my bye run

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5R9-_1wCtg

And Jon, it sounds like my car hits 3rd a little bit before the 1000 foot mark

[01silveralero]

damn 2.37 60' and u had 2.23 u should have easily been in 14s

[adam337]

jackal smoked you.

[Mr_Reed]

damit man, get your camera man a tripod lol

[-Alero-]

if jon would of picked me up i would of went lol

[Daytona]

damit man, get your camera man a tripod lol

I was actually Mr. Video Guy for the first 2 vids. I kept talking to the track guy under the tower as I filmed the race and kept moving the camera each time I turned to talk to him as we stood there. You can hear some of our conversation as he was telling me that the next class was already pulling up under the tower and so I had to get my car up there quick if I wanted to run. At the end you can also see the camera "pan" as I turned and started running to my car. I think I would have down a better job had I not felt rushed. :ninja:

It's hard to see in the video of my run but I did tap my brakes at the big end knowing I had a bit of a margin on him but still ran 15.956 on the brakes. The incrementals to the 1000' told me I should have run only a 15.97 flat out and I know I didn't break the beams with my nose or spoiler when I braked so the run didn't make much sense. Had a lot of trouble getting her to be consistent enough for my liking, even when I launched her the same way and temp each time.

Still, apparently in crappy 90-degree 50% humidity weather I was still quicker than many other slightly modded cars on here. And my car is bone stock, 65,xxx miles on the engine, and loaded with crap (race weight with driver = 3,248 lbs.). It's an automatic and I just left her in 3rd gear all day and let her do all of the shifting. Imagine how quick I'd be without all the extra weight (CD's, cassettes, magazines, 6-pack of water, etc) and in cooler weather? :coolio:

[jackal2000]

its really sad that i cant figure out how to tune my car. i did a scan on the way to the track hitting WOT a couple of times and made some timing changes when i got there. i scanned my first run and still had KR the whole run. on the big end of the track the PCM was pulling over 12* of timing :( i made more changes but to no effect. good runs ken, you got me.

[[ion] C2]

do you even tune the VE tables?

[jackal2000]

C2;383914']do you even tune the VE tables?

yes and VE would have nothing to do with this since i am running a MAF and my fuel trims were reasonable.

[Redog]

damn 2.37 60' and u had 2.23 u should have easily been in 14s


That's E-Town. My best 60' there that wasn't a 14 second run was 2.10.

The best 60' I can remember was 2.057

[jackal2000]

my best ever 60' was 1.8 at MIR.

[Redog]

jackal smoked you.

Notice which car got the win lights first :rolleyes2:

I did say in other posts that this would probably come down to r/t, and it did. It was a good race either way.

Either way, I wouldn't call .039 and .025 smoking someone, I would say right now, our cars are pretty much equal. Once Jon gets his tuned right, then you can say he smoked me. I know his car is capibable of it ;)

[[ion] C2]

yes and VE would have nothing to do with this since i am running a MAF and my fuel trims were reasonable.

damn MAFs i know not this black magic

Either way volumetric efficiency tuning lets you make sure the VCM knows exactly how much air/fuel is getting into the cylinders at any moment, making things run oh so smooth and consistent and accurate. But I don't think you have a wideband so there's absolutely no way you can tune the VE tables anywhere near accurately.

Without a real wideband (not some "sniffer" POS) there's no way you can really tune..

[jabartram]

the issue with VE tuning, well the issue i ran into, was that we need to unplug our maf sensor to do a proper VE tune, but when we unplug the maf the pcm goes into a default transmission mode that causes FULL line pressure and is hard on the drivetrain, it feels like direct drive when shifting into reverse or drive, but gear shifts are awesome. i dealt with that situation for about a month while trying to VE tune my 36lb injectors.


and yes a wideband is very significant for proper tuning.

[BlackJack]

its really sad that i cant figure out how to tune my car. i did a scan on the way to the track hitting WOT a couple of times and made some timing changes when i got there. i scanned my first run and still had KR the whole run. on the big end of the track the PCM was pulling over 12* of timing :( i made more changes but to no effect. good runs ken, you got me.

You need to look for the following things in this order:

1) Octane (tune once for street gas, and a second one for the track).
2) Compression ratio - is yours too high for the octane you're running?
3) Once you have the octane decided on, start adding fuel in the cells you're getting KR hits on.
4) When adding fuel in that cell no longer reduces KR, then start backing the timing off in that range.

Remember, the higher Octane you're running, the more timing you can get away with. That's why I say settle on what fuel you want before making adjustments.

And you're right, VE tune has nothing to do with this particular situation. I know a couple people that are running 13's with stock VE and only doing MAF adjustments.

[jackal2000]

i run 93 octane religiously. here's the scan for my first run.

http://www.2shared.com/file/3855031/5547bbc0/racewaypark2.html

[BlackJack]

I'm sure you realize, the scan doesn't tell me shit without the tune file to compare with.

Also, I'm not on a computer with the ability to look at .csv so if you can convert that to excel that would be very cool of you

[jackal2000]

i converted it to .xls

http://www.2shared.com/file/3855285/b25a727c/racewaypark2.html

so i need to add fuel to all MAF cells above 4000hz.

[BlackJack]

be patient, I'll check it out. My internet capable computer is vista, so it won't run PowrTuner, and my tuning computer isn't internet capable. I'll get it worked out and get back to you this afternoon.

[jackal2000]

thanks man.

[jackal2000]

My times today were, in order, 15.302, 15.325, 15.272, 15.322 (on brakes) 15.250, and 15.271

I didn't catch all Jon's or Mitch's times

15.277, 15.286, 15.941 (launched from idle and tripped two DTCs 137, and 401), 15.308 ( let off the gas when i saw mitch slam the brakes lol), 15.234

[-Alero-]

what do those DTC's mean......dude im telling you we need to get together and scan my car

[jackal2000]

137 is the down stream o2 sensor that i dont have lol and 401 is an egr insufficient flow. they didnt effect performance since i ran my fastest time with them set.

[[ion] C2]

P0401: Insufficient EGR Flow
P0137: O2 Sensor Voltage Low, typically either catalytic converter related or either primary or secondary oxygen sensor.

Sure would affect performance if your kitty's getting clogged and it's not just a faulty sensor. And the EGR one, my mom's 3400 had that coming on intermittently when the headgasket blew, heh.

[BlackJack]

J, upload your .bin file somewhere so I can see your settings and compare them to your scans.

[Redog]

15.277, 15.286, 15.941 (launched from idle and tripped two DTCs 137, and 401), 15.308 ( let off the gas when i saw mitch slam the brakes lol), 15.234


Well, you are faster, but not by much. 0.016 to be exact. Would this make us equal?

Jon, what was your fastest time ever?

[BlackJack]

Jon, your spark might be commanded a little high.

I can tell you that in the Spark tables, I dont' have ANY cells commanding more than 15 degrees when I'm at or above 90 kPa. Try cutting your spark down for beginnings.

Just a little at a time, then compare to see if it makes a bit of difference for you.

Also point of note, I noticed your IPW's spike periodically, as if there is not a smooth transition between MAF cells. You probably want to work that out as well.

[jackal2000]

C2;384217']P0401: Insufficient EGR Flow
P0137: O2 Sensor Voltage Low, typically either catalytic converter related or either primary or secondary oxygen sensor.

Sure would affect performance if your kitty's getting clogged and it's not just a faulty sensor. And the EGR one, my mom's 3400 had that coming on intermittently when the headgasket blew, heh.

i dont have a downstream o2 sensor and i guess i forgot to turn that code off and i have no signs of a blown headgasket.

Well, you are faster, but not by much. 0.016 to be exact. Would this make us equal?

Jon, what was your fastest time ever?

14.909

Jon, your spark might be commanded a little high.

I can tell you that in the Spark tables, I dont' have ANY cells commanding more than 15 degrees when I'm at or above 90 kPa. Try cutting your spark down for beginnings.

Just a little at a time, then compare to see if it makes a bit of difference for you.

Also point of note, I noticed your IPW's spike periodically, as if there is not a smooth transition between MAF cells. You probably want to work that out as well.

thats the difference between boosted vs non-boosted. i am supposed to be able to run higher timing...or so i thought.

[jackal2000]

J, upload your .bin file somewhere so I can see your settings and compare them to your scans.

the one i used at the track:

http://www.2shared.com/file/3861118/d7ade656/post_dyno_8_june_change1.html


changes i made when i got home ( i added 3% to all MAF cells 4000hz and higher):

http://www.2shared.com/file/3861110/d9766e64/august31.html

[BlackJack]

thats the difference between boosted vs non-boosted. i am supposed to be able to run higher timing...or so i thought.

You would think so. But looking at your scans, that's the most likely culprit right now.

Keep in mind, there are other things that can cause KR, like lack of traction (wheel hop), bad motor mounts, loose exhaust connections (especially at the headers) etc.

Headers that had slowly worked their way loose (before initial retorque) caused me to go on a mad witch-hunt for KR through tuning, and had no effect. Once I torqued down the headers, it went away. Pissed me off.