turbo question

[worknprog.99]

afer searchin awhile i didnt find a very clear answer. but with turboing can you use any stock turbos from any cars? and if not what is a few recomended turbos to run?

[Vic28]

oKaY, so far we know you have a 99 Alero.....:rolleyes2:

[worknprog.99]

oKaY, so far we know you have a 99 Alero.....:rolleyes2:

sorry lol 99 gls 3400 ... me and a buddy are coming up with a design. since i know not a bunch have it done i like being unique lol

what would a good turbo be for this though?

[AbHeLlRaZoR]

T3/T4 turbo is a popular one don't know if it would be best matched to a 3400 but hey it will give you an idea of whats out there.

[worknprog.99]

T3/T4 turbo is a popular one don't know if it would be best matched to a 3400 but hey it will give you an idea of whats out there.

thanks... im new to the whole turbo sizing thing lol

[Gr1m]

i smell epic fail

[AbHeLlRaZoR]

thanks... im new to the whole turbo sizing thing lol

like I said "don't know if it would be best matched to a 3400"

[worknprog.99]

i smell epic fail

and why is that?

[[ion] C2]

Ugh, yet another thread of uninformed-ness.

T3/T4 is simply a style of flange. You can use a "stock turbo from any car" if you want. You're making a custom exhaust manifold anyway, you can weld whatever turbocharger flange you want on it. I'd go with a Garrett GT30R on the 3400. Or even a GT35R.

[worknprog.99]

i am for sure turboing i have two people im working with on this setup. i am simply asking for oppinions im not completely out of it when it comes to these things. i am very much looing forward to doing this because i have never seen this done around where i live on this motor and i like being unique. .....

[Spilner521]

GT3582R would be perfect. It would spool fast on a 3400 and give you the potential for around 550whp.

[worknprog.99]

GT3582R would be perfect. It would spool fast on a 3400 and give you the potential for around 550whp.

thanks, yeah i was actually jus looking at that turbo in another window lol
550whp would be sweet, i have been thinking though can the stock tranny take that kind of power? what is it rated to?

[natedawg9640]

sure for a run or two

[Spilner521]

thanks, yeah i was actually jus looking at that turbo in another window lol
550whp would be sweet, i have been thinking though can the stock tranny take that kind of power? what is it rated to?
I doubt it. Just because you could make that much power, doesn't mean you have to. Keep the boost lower and push 350ish whp. Depends how well the trannys been treated. A big fluid cooler would help and a B&M Shiftplus would keep the clutch packs from slipping for a little while. Ideally you'd want a built tranny if you want to push that much power or more.

[worknprog.99]

if it was tuned right coould the stock tranny be run? or is replacing it almost unavoidable?

[Spilner521]

Tuning it isn't going to help, it'll just raise the line pressure to shift quicker and you'll be able to set your shift points. It would still need to have stronger parts to hold a lot of power. Like I said, you could run it for a little while with a tranny fluid cooler and B&M Shiftplus to raise line pressure, but after awhile the clutches would start to slip or it would break something else inside the tranny.

[worknprog.99]

Tuning it isn't going to help, it'll just raise the line pressure to shift quicker and you'll be able to set your shift points. It would still need to have stronger parts to hold a lot of power.

what does that involve? and pricewise?

[Spilner521]

I have no idea

I know how to build an engine and a powerful turbo setup. A transmission is foreign territory to me.

[worknprog.99]

I have no idea

I know how to build an engine and a powerful turbo setup. A transmission is foreign territory to me.

lol... before i start the setup i might need to figure that out:cool:

[worknprog.99]

anyone know about strengthening the tranny or what to do ? this is really the only thing in the way of starting on the setup.

[[ion] C2]

Ya, upgraded clutch packs, better fluid pump, aftermarket torque converter...

[worknprog.99]

C2;454054']Ya, upgraded clutch packs, better fluid pump, aftermarket torque converter...

thats what myself and my friend who is helpoing me thought. where wouold i look to find the things i will need?

that is just the main thing im worried about, cause i dont want to get everything put together and then have my gears slip and mess up after two runs lol.

also ion around how much is tunning afterwards? and can it be done with a laptop or does it have to be done at a shop?

[[ion] C2]

It's done on a laptop... always.. you need to drive and log data. You NEED a wideband oxygen sensor. It depends on the shop, how long it takes, etc. You need one familiar with HPTuners.

[worknprog.99]

C2;454087']It's done on a laptop... always.. you need to drive and log data. You NEED a wideband oxygen sensor. It depends on the shop, how long it takes, etc. You need one familiar with HPTuners.

thanks man thats what i figured..

also i was thinking about the engine mounts and the head gaskets. is there a tougher upgraded head gasket i could use or would that have to be customed also? resasoning i would think that the stock one wouldnt hold up very long...

[worknprog.99]

ok so heres the plan were are starting to buy the parts now so this setup is for sure happening here in a month or so im super excited.

probably going to go with a gtp tranny with slight modifications.
plan on customing all piping from the exhaust manifold and relocating the battery...
any intercooler recomendations?

[Redog]

I blew the tranny on my car, with appox 200 HP.

HP is not what breaks things, torque is

Good tranny is the 4T65HD tranny. Found in cop cars and some minivans. It requires a little bit of programing and a lot fab work, like axles, hubs, and mounts. It will bolt right up to the motor

[kwhauck]

if i were you I would wait and blow 1 or 2 transmisssions first, or build a spare and see how long the stock one lasts, they are not that hard to swap in and out....

[[ion] C2]

any intercooler recomendations?

ebay $100 jobs are pretty much just as good as the name brands..

[Spilner521]

Good tranny is the 4T65HD tranny. Found in cop cars and some minivans.
And anything with the 3800 supercharged engine, like a GTP
probably going to go with a gtp tranny with slight modifications.
Good idea
any intercooler recomendations?
ETS DSM 3.5" intercooler -http://www.extremeturbosystems.com/Mitsubishi/Eagle-95-99-Eclipse/Talon-Intercoolers-and-Piping-Kits-Intercooler-Only/c5_58_73_75/p89/ETS-95-99-2G-DSM-7-Street/Strip-Intercooler-2GDSM_IC_7SS/product_info.html
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/7382/ets2gdsm7inintercooler.jpg

It's 7" tall x 25" wide x 3.5" thick, it's good for 500hp and will fit an Alero front bumper very nicely.

It'll look very similar to this
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5328/intercoolerv.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3097/myintercooler.jpg

[AleroB888]

It's 7" tall x 25" wide x 3.5" thick, it's good for 500hp ......

I disagree with that, the most important spec for intercooler airflow is charge face area, and according to one chart I have, a 3.5 X 7 inch charge face would yield 11 square inches of effective charge face area (24.5 X 0.45 in.), and thus about 150-200 HP or 225-300 CFM. Even a 24.5 square inch effective charge area would get 500 CFM, or about 330 HP.

(Source: Maximum Boost, by Corky Bell)

[worknprog.99]

yeah we are going to get a trany from a gtp here soon.. i am pretty sure the only thing i will have to do is rewire a wiring harnes cause i am pretty sure they are the only part that isnt exact....btw its from a 2000-2004 gtp.....
and i thought a smaller cooler would work better so the turbo can handle it....

[Spilner521]

I disagree with that, the most important spec for intercooler airflow is charge face area, and according to one chart I have, a 3.5 X 7 inch charge face would yield 11 square inches of effective charge face area (24.5 X 0.45 in.), and thus about 150-200 HP or 225-300 CFM. Even a 24.5 square inch effective charge area would get 500 CFM, or about 330 HP.

(Source: Maximum Boost, by Corky Bell)
Where did you get 3.5" x 7" face? That intercooler I posted has a core size of 25" wide by 7" tall...that's 175 square inches of surface area. It's 3.5" thick, from front to back. According to their website it flows 715cfm.

A 3.5" tall by 7" wide intercooler would be tiny.

[Spilner521]

and i thought a smaller cooler would work better so the turbo can handle it....
Trust me, the turbo can handle whatever size intercooler you want to put on the car. That ETS core will be just fine. I would even go bigger, but it wouldn't fit behind the bumper very nicely.

[AleroB888]

Where did you get 3.5" x 7" face?

That's the charge inlet/outlet face area.

That intercooler I posted has a core size of 25" wide by 7" tall...that's 175 square inches of surface area.

That's the frontal area seen by the ambient air, not the charge air.
To gain the full advantage of that size core, it would have to be reconfigured so that the charge-air channels (inlet and outlet) were vertical (as installed in the pic), making the charge face area 3.5 X 25 square inches, and effective area (87.5 X 0.45)= 39.4 sq inches.

That would bring the capability to over 700 CFM and 500 HP.

Both configurations would have the same heat transfer area, but the one with the larger charge face has much less pressure loss.


It's 3.5" thick, from front to back. According to their website it flows 715cfm.

Do they also specify what the pressure loss is ? That spec is pretty critical, especially in a turbo application.

[worknprog.99]

question... the gtp tranny will bolt right up except for the wiring correct? it would just need a new harness?/ its this tranny 4t65e-hd

[Spilner521]

That's the charge inlet/outlet face area.



That's the frontal area seen by the ambient air, not the charge air.
To gain the full advantage of that size core, it would have to be reconfigured so that the charge-air channels (inlet and outlet) were vertical (as installed in the pic), making the charge face area 3.5 X 25 square inches, and effective area (87.5 X 0.45)= 39.4 sq inches.

That would bring the capability to over 700 CFM and 500 HP.

Both configurations would have the same heat transfer area, but the one with the larger charge face has much less pressure loss.




Do they also specify what the pressure loss is ? That spec is pretty critical, especially in a turbo application.
You're reading way too far into this. We're just talking about a street car with a turbo kit to add some extra power.

So you're saying you want something like this
http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/~treadstone/prod_imgs/img-35-0-large.jpg


For what? All charge air channels being equally sized, it'll have the same internal volume and external surface area as the horizontal intercooler. Less pressure drop you say? If you choose a good sized core that you're not going to outflow, pressure drop will be minimal. If you try to run 700cfm through a 700cfm core, then yes, pressure drop will be greater. You only need to worry about pressure drop when you start approaching the core's flow limits. So if you run your 700cfm through a 1200cfm core, there will be less backpressure and less pressure drop.

Now you have to worry about packaging. That vertical flow intercooler won't fit in the same spot that mine is in. Yeah you can make it fit by modifying the end tanks and maybe doing some triming of the bumper, but why go through the extra work when the horizontal intercooler fits in the same spot without extensive modification, and does a comparable job to the vertical core?

Bottom line is this: The horizontal type intercooler has been proven to flow well and cool the charge efficiently while minimizing any sort of pressure drop. Why mess with something that's proven to work?

[kwhauck]

question... the gtp tranny will bolt right up except for the wiring correct? it would just need a new harness?/ its this tranny 4t65e-hd

no you need custom axles, mounts, and other things, if blackjack is available he will explain, it is not a newb swap for sure.......

[worknprog.99]

no you need custom axles, mounts, and other things, if blackjack is available he will explain, it is not a newb swap for sure.......

your absolutely positive??
now i have conflicting opinions , others have said they have done it with just the wiring harnes and performance mount.

i believe you though thanks for the insight....

is there anyting available to "spruce" up the stock tranny?

[worknprog.99]

were you meaning the gtp trany itself wont work or the exact number i gave you , being the 4t65e-hd?

or both such as the 4t60?-- will that one work? or still need the axels and other things.. i was going to buy performance mounts anyways either way

[AleroB888]

You're reading way too far into this. We're just talking about a street car with a turbo kit to add some extra power.

No, I was questioning the "good to 500 HP" claim.


So you're saying you want something like this
http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/~treadstone/prod_imgs/img-35-0-large.jpg

Yes, I am


For what? All charge air channels being equally sized, it'll have the same internal volume and external surface area as the horizontal intercooler. Less pressure drop you say?

Yes, less psi drop. However, streamlining of the inlets and outlets is also important.

If you choose a good sized core that you're not going to outflow, pressure drop will be minimal. If you try to run 700cfm through a 700cfm core, then yes, pressure drop will be greater. You only need to worry about pressure drop when you start approaching the core's flow limits.

I am saying the core was overrated to begin with, according to the guidelines I have at hand, and if my math is accurate. :)


So if you run your 700cfm through a 1200cfm core, there will be less backpressure and less pressure drop.

Now you have to worry about packaging. That vertical flow intercooler won't fit in the same spot that mine is in. Yeah you can make it fit by modifying the end tanks and maybe doing some triming of the bumper, but why go through the extra work when the horizontal intercooler fits in the same spot without extensive modification, and does a comparable job to the vertical core?

Bottom line is this: The horizontal type intercooler has been proven to flow well and cool the charge efficiently while minimizing any sort of pressure drop. Why mess with something that's proven to work?

Until you actually test it for psi drop on the particular car, which I have seen almost nobody do, you don't know for sure. Remember, I am questioning the 500 HP claim, not what it does at 250 HP.

Also, if you decide to add substantially more boost at a later time, and the IC proved to be restrictive, you would have to redesign it anyway.
With an open exhaust and low boost, it might perform pretty well, but as critical as it can be in a turbo application, I would not take the risk.

[kwhauck]

were you meaning the gtp trany itself wont work or the exact number i gave you , being the 4t65e-hd?

or both such as the 4t60?-- will that one work? or still need the axels and other things.. i was going to buy performance mounts anyways either way

you need to have custom mounts made, not performance mounts.....

[worknprog.99]

alright.. for now i think it will be ok to run the stock tranny at a low psi like around 6-9 max at first. after a new tuned pcm i dont see why the stock one would be that stressed unless i go balls out all the time.. then later if it has problems i can swapp something then.

[Spilner521]

Also, if you decide to add substantially more boost at a later time, and the IC proved to be restrictive, you would have to redesign it anyway.
With an open exhaust and low boost, it might perform pretty well, but as critical as it can be in a turbo application, I would not take the risk.
There's no risk about it, it just comes back to choosing the right core to begin with. If all of a sudden you want to add all kinds of boost, and your intercooler is large enough to still be efficient you're fine. But if what you have is just the right size for the low boost setup you're running, you'll need to get a larger core anyway.

As for the 500hp claim, you'll have to take that up with ETS. I do know they are a very reputable company in the DSM/Evo scene with excellent customer service and their products have been dyno proven to perform very well.

[Spilner521]

alright.. for now i think it will be ok to run the stock tranny at a low psi like around 6-9 max at first. after a new tuned pcm i dont see why the stock one would be that stressed unless i go balls out all the time.. then later if it has problems i can swapp something then.
A tuned PCM does not all of a sudden let the tranny handle more power. You'll be just fine on low boost, around 8-10psi depending on what turbo you choose. When you want to start pushing some bigger numbers, you'll need a built tranny.

[worknprog.99]

A tuned PCM does not all of a sudden let the tranny handle more power. You'll be just fine on low boost, around 8-10psi depending on what turbo you choose. When you want to start pushing some bigger numbers, you'll need a built tranny.

i know the pcm doesnt make the tranny stronger but if i tried to run it with a turbo and not flash it then it would be horrible on the whole motor lol...

yeah the setup we have going and the turbo we get , we will will be starting at around 6-9 psi

[Spilner521]

Which turbo did you choose?

[worknprog.99]

Which turbo did you choose?

not quite sure yet. have been doing a little looking around tho. whatever i get though will not be the most powerful shit youve ever seen i want to get something up and running first see how the car reacts and then add more from there...

the last car i assisted in a turbo with, the guy insisted on this great turbo he found and how expensive it was. lol and he bought it and lets just say 4 days later his 2.4 l motor was no longer alive :lol:

[worknprog.99]

where would the best place to run the oil lines form be?
and anyone know where i can get a battery relocation at?

[kwhauck]

ask the turbo guys for sure and
summit racing for the battery relocation

[[ion] C2]

You just tap off the oil pressure/level sendor with a brass T (at least on the 2.4L).

The return line is simply run to the oil pan. Drill and tap a hole and put it in. No biggie.

[worknprog.99]

C2;455256']You just tap off the oil pressure/level sendor with a brass T (at least on the 2.4L).

The return line is simply run to the oil pan. Drill and tap a hole and put it in. No biggie.

thats what i was thinking thank you for confirming lol.

edit; how do i make sure the oil pan doesnt leak? do i use like a special gasket ?

[AleroB888]

There's no risk about it, it just comes back to choosing the right core to begin with. ..................

There is a slight risk to the engine associated with it, but since I have no firsthand turbo experience, I might botch up explaining it. So I'll try to find some more sources besides Bell, and present an explanation in another thread.

[[ion] C2]

edit; how do i make sure the oil pan doesnt leak? do i use like a special gasket ?
Lol... the hole is drilled and tapped, AKA you make threads to screw in a fitting that runs a hose to the turbo oil outlet.

[worknprog.99]

C2;455261']Lol... the hole is drilled and tapped, AKA you make threads to screw in a fitting that runs a hose to the turbo oil outlet.

(slap on the head) :cool: im an idiot i guess i didnt read and or think about what you said

[Spilner521]

There is a slight risk to the engine associated with it, but since I have no firsthand turbo experience, I might botch up explaining it. So I'll try to find some more sources besides Bell, and present an explanation in another thread.
If there was any risk, the car companies wouldn't put a horizontal type intercooler in their factory turbo cars, or aftermarket companies wouldn't make them in larger cores as upgrades, or race teams wouldn't use them for high horsepower track cars, or some of the ultra high horsepower dyno queen/drag cars wouldn't use them. The vertical intercooler may be better in certain aspects, but the horizontal intercooler certainly works and works very well, no matter what application it's for. It's been proven time and time again.

[worknprog.99]

so will gtp fuel injectors work on the 3400?
im having mixed answers...

[kwhauck]

honestly if you are just starting at 8lbs, the 28lb tb/envoy injectors should be fine.....

[worknprog.99]

honestly if you are just starting at 8lbs, the 28lb tb/envoy injectors should be fine.....

i thought the trailblazer ones had a different injection system?

so the gtp ones would work though? but there are other option other options within gm cars then, good to know