Rough Starting

[cherrington17]

Every once in a while... my car doesn't want to start. It turns over, just doesn't "catch"

what could be the problem? It cranks fine, starter seems to be clicking as rapidly as ever... (what do they sound like when they are dying?) The fuel pump is certainly priming...


When it doesn't... it cranks, sputters, all power shuts off for a second, then everything kicks on and it starts. wtf causes that?!? and when i say all power is lost... i mean.. headunit shuts off, gauges shut off, headlights off...everything. for about 0.5 seconds... then it kicks on and starts right up.

When running, i have absolutely ZERO problems. Voltage is at 14.8, its a new battery (which is holding 11.5/12.0 Volts when ON, easily) no idle problems, no engine trouble... no codes.

....wtf...?

[clutch1]

Everytime I've lost power on startups it's been from a loose connection on the battery.. Pretty simple, but have you tried disconnecting/ reconnecting it? Checking the main leads for loose connections??

The engine rocks a lot when it's starting compared to normally it seems to me.. maybe a wire moves just right sometimes.

[Nate's Alero]

fusebox wire is corroded, take it off and clean it... happened to me, used to do that once....

also, clean and service battery terminals

[cherrington17]

like i said, battery is new (like a week old) connections are new, clean, and tight.


which fusebox, and how so i take them off?

[cherrington17]

Ok... fuse box line was a little corroded... thats fixed.

Started ok after that, but last night it was pretty rough again. So i have a question. I know the starter is good... but what if the lines coming out of it are salted and corroded. Wouldn't that cause bad power to come from the starter, leading to bad spark?

[Nate's Alero]

Ok... fuse box line was a little corroded... thats fixed.

Started ok after that, but last night it was pretty rough again. So i have a question. I know the starter is good... but what if the lines coming out of it are salted and corroded. Wouldn't that cause bad power to come from the starter, leading to bad spark?

um, spark is controlled via PCM, and the coilpacks... if it runs like a dream when it's running.. it's not the ignition.. you did plugs you say.. okay.. get us a video will ya please?

[cherrington17]

acdelco...iridium, i think. iirc.
also checked oil, for limg redux... and its typical dark oil. no chocolatey-ness.

I'll get a video up soon


i do remember once just after i got it, as i was driving the whole thing just shut off... no power anywhere... dead coast.. for like... 4 seconds. Then everything kicked on w/o me doing an thing, and went back to how it was driving. Possibly my pcm might be bad? I suppose it could make sense....

...i just went to try to get a video...and it started fine. I'll have to keep my camera in my car....

[wearetheromans85]

I'm having very similar problem. Today right when I was about to leave work I started the car then after being started for a sec or so the whole car just shut off. Didn't seem like a dirty fuel system kind of shutoff more like someone pulled the power plug. any other thoughts?

[cherrington17]

when it turns over like crazy, shortly after driving, i get a pretty strong smell of gas.

which leads me to believe 1 of two things. connections on the starter, not sending good power for spark (or the coil packs) OR the spark plugs....

[rustyballs_69]

Fpr?

[cherrington17]

which is where?

[rustyballs_69]

which is where?

They are known to leak.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y137/rustyballs_69/34L.jpg

[cherrington17]

:lol: I didn't see there was a reply here... and i just went and looked it up.

I think i'll try replacing that first. Its cheaper, easier, and most likely the issue. (when it doesn't crank, i get a strong gas smell in the car) So new hosing and a new FPR... probably tomorrow.

[cherrington17]

Also like to add... i took the top hose off the FPR while the car was idling... and no gas came out.

But...at idle.. the engine did seem to have a slight gas smell to it...


Tomorrow i'm seeing if i can rent a fuel pressure tester.

[cherrington17]

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXg2aRLVJ-U

I got a pressure tester... and it doesn't work. LAME! :( I connected it to the schrader valve (gay sprayed out) turned the key to ON (leaving engine off) the pump primed... the tester needle didn't move.

So I repeated this... Needle doesn't move. So I started the car... Needle doesn't move. I press the pressure relief with the car running (should cause gas to shoot out) Nothing. LAME!!!! :gun:

[Nate's Alero]

Double Fail

[Nate's Alero]

that is EXACTLY what my alero did when my HG's were gone.. crank FART crrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaannnnnnnkkkkkkkkkkkk

and it eventually hucks and farts until it's going... then runs fine

and to prove it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhPwmj0s4AY

yes, that is my car, a week before the headgasket job..

since the HG job, NO issues WHATSOEVER

[cherrington17]

there was no "fart" i stopped cranking. (not shown in video, for reasons unknown to youtube shenanigans) I turned the key and it immediately cranked.

I can send you the legit video... youtube botched it.

[Nate's Alero]

there was no "fart" i stopped cranking. (not shown in video, for reasons unknown to youtube shenanigans) I turned the key and it immediately cranked.

I can send you the legit video... youtube botched it.
yeah, but i heard it "fire" ONCE, then "crrrrannnnnk"

mine used to do that EXACT same thing.. send me the good video though, hopefully your camera is a lot better then youtube makes it out to be

natey1112@yahoo.com

i'll PM you my home phone, call me and we can discuss this further

call me around 4:30pm

[cherrington17]

http://rapidshare.com/files/334263321/CIMG0007.AVI.html

actual video.

[cherrington17]

Anyone else, other then nate? I say its fuel related, nate says its headgaskets...


can't be headgaskets. The minimal amount of coolant i'm loosing, is from the leak under the TB (trickles), my car idles/drives/runs beautifully, and my exhaust has no smoke....

[Nate's Alero]

Anyone else, other then nate? I say its fuel related, nate says its headgaskets...


can't be headgaskets. The minimal amount of coolant i'm loosing, is from the leak under the TB (trickles), my car idles/drives/runs beautifully, and my exhaust has no smoke....

aaaaand, to my next point.. i never burned coolant out the tailpipe.. and it was not until the VERY END that i started losing coolant... ttop191 can vouch for it running fine, and no smoke.. i lost NO coolant due to the headgasket, the only problem was when the car was off, the gasket was eroded enough, that coolant would seep in, and foul the plugs, it never drew it into the cylinder..

and i had tests, compression was fine, and i also noted that from the increased pressure, when i cranked the engine over (coolant is not compressible, so it resulted in higher compression in that cylinder, and made gases and air seep past when cold

[cherrington17]

bump. any other opinions??

[rustyballs_69]

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXg2aRLVJ-U

I got a pressure tester... and it doesn't work. LAME! :( I connected it to the schrader valve (gay sprayed out) turned the key to ON (leaving engine off) the pump primed... the tester needle didn't move.

So I repeated this... Needle doesn't move. So I started the car... Needle doesn't move. I press the pressure relief with the car running (should cause gas to shoot out) Nothing. LAME!!!! :gun:

Have you changed the fpr yet? If its bad then it may not hold any fuel pressure and thats why your reading was 0 and no gas came out when you pushed the valve in. Thats my guess. Try just turning the key to the on position to prime the fuel rails and then push the schrader valve and see if anything comes out

[Nate's Alero]

no gas comes out when you prime?

[cherrington17]

tons of gas came out when i primed it. the pressure tester gauge didn't do crap... i think it was broken. :glare:

[Ttop191]

tons of gas came out when i primed it. the pressure tester gauge didn't do crap... i think it was broken. :glare:

think so

[a4d2a0m]

I was losing all power during start up/ rough starts, it took me a while to find it.. slowly got worse (almost happened every day.)

Turned out It was the negative batt. terminal, The bolt/connection(rubber boot) was tight, but the actual metal plate contact was not seating tightly.

I got a metal washer(5/8" or 1/2" I think?...) It fit perfectly, put dielectric grease on both sides, and it solved all of my problems. 3 months now.

[cherrington17]

DEFINITELY not a battery issue. those are clean and tight.

And i didn't replace the FPR. i was hoping to diagnose the problem first... but it appears that it will be the next thing to do on my list.... :glare: Mine is rather rusted/corroded/nasty looking.

[a4d2a0m]

ok... mine were clean and tight too.. no issues, I would never have guessed that was my prob. You wouldn't think the batt connection would wear out.

But you losing all power means it is should not be fuel related, that video looked identical to my symptoms.

[cherrington17]

I'll triple check all those connections...

what else?

[Nate's Alero]

i don't see a power loss in the video, i hear it fire once, and it keeps cranking, i see NO power issues..

like i said, it's a Fuel/air/spark issue, and the starter has nothing to do with "spark"

[cherrington17]

Finally got a shot of my UIM.

this has puzzled me. I noticed the back half is darker... its not wet, there nothing around it that IS wet... and it smells like fuel. :huh:

http://www.;-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-).com/forums/images/smilies/fu-.gif
http://www.;-%29;-%29;-%29;-%29;-%29;-%29;-%29;-%29;-%29.com/forums/images/smilies/fu-.gif

[Nate's Alero]

rear Orings leaking...

[rustyballs_69]

Pictures aren't showing for me.

[cherrington17]

(all my onsite pics were deleted... here it is again)

[rustyballs_69]

I wonder if the o ring on the inlet line to the fuel rail is messed up. Usually when that happens it sprays fuel the other direction thought.

[cherrington17]

...aaaannnddd it gets towed to a shop. The fuel rail came off... brought 3 injectors with it. One the electrical connector snapped off of, one is missing the bottom rubber boot, another 2 "boots" are stuck in the lower intake manifold.

and the other 3 are still firmly wedged in the intake. so..yeah. I'm done. Good lord i don't want to pay for this...

sooo pissed

[rustyballs_69]

There is a guy on grandamgt.com that has some fuel rails with injectors for sale for like 25 plus shipping. It would be cheaper but the car maybe down longer waiting on the parts. A shop is gonna rip you a new asshole, injectors aren't cheap.

http://grandamgt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82032

[nixon]

this might sound stupid since i dont know to much about it....but what about if it doesnt have enough compression would head gaskets affect that?

[cherrington17]

There is a guy on grandamgt.com that has some fuel rails with injectors for sale for like 25 plus shipping. It would be cheaper but the car maybe down longer waiting on the parts. A shop is gonna rip you a new ahoe, injectors aren't cheap.

http://grandamgt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82032

the guy thats doing it, always does it for cheap. (parts and labor are usually less then the normal full labor cost)

I explained to him that the engine is already torn apart, and the fuel rail is off.. then the injector problems. He laughed and said he'd figure it out. Hes a great guy..

... i miss my car already. i spent the evening driving my g/f's explorer... which is very poorly illuminated. :cry:

[rustyballs_69]

the guy thats doing it, always does it for cheap. (parts and labor are usually less then the normal full labor cost)

I explained to him that the engine is already torn apart, and the fuel rail is off.. then the injector problems. He laughed and said he'd figure it out. Hes a great guy..

... i miss my car already. i spent the evening driving my g/f's explorer... which is very poorly illuminated. :cry:

While the car is at the shop put some leds in the explorer.

[cherrington17]

:lol: i ordered some... but i think they got lost in the mail. (she wants pink lighting)

its been 3.5 weeks.. :(

[rustyballs_69]

I would say there are lost then.

[Nate's Alero]

LEDS? mine took a month

[cherrington17]

any reason logical reason why when the car tries to turn over (not frequently at all, but just did today... damn fuel pump pause) my locks lock/unlock about 3x quickly?

[Kilroy]

any reason logical reason why when the car tries to turn over (not frequently at all, but just did today... damn fuel pump pause) my locks lock/unlock about 3x quickly?

Low battery does weird things. Had this happen to me.

[cherrington17]

definitely not a low battery. with the key at "On" i have 12.2V. new yellow top.

any other ideas?

[clutch1]

Dunno if it was mentioned, but bcm/pcm/enginebay/body grounds.. have they been checked?

[cherrington17]

pcm, no. engine bay, yes. body, no.

if i knew where to look for all of those.... then i'd be much better off. :lol:

[clutch1]

Dunno if it tells ground locations here:
http://www.aleromod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19347

Body is usually near the kickpanels, behind the plastic piece, usually a couple under the middle/console of the dash, one behind the cluster sometimes.

BCM is under the right side of the dash, right? Do a drop test on the ground wire/s... look for .0X volts from the ground on the connector to the battery neg post (must be plugged in, key on), do the same for the PCM as well.

Few things to try for ya, good luck!

[cherrington17]

Little update. I got more of a diagnosis now. When it doesn't turn over, it seems like the car goes from ACC-ON fine, then as soon as I turn to start it... it goes back to ACC except trying to start the car from there. (Like the ON gets disconnected)

I figured this out because the radio stays on, the doors unlock, and the gauges shut off. Everything the car does when u turn from ON back to ACC.

Any ideas? If its the ignition cylinder... I'm gonna need a how to, on push button starting...
I don't know anything about how the ignition works... what does ACC connect to... what does ON connect to? Etc. Someone gimme a lesson.

[Nate's Alero]

Little update. I got more of a diagnosis now. When it doesn't turn over, it seems like the car goes from ACC-ON fine, then as soon as I turn to start it... it goes back to ACC except trying to start the car from there. (Like the ON gets disconnected)

I figured this out because the radio stays on, the doors unlock, and the gauges shut off. Everything the car does when u turn from ON back to ACC.

Any ideas? If its the ignition cylinder... I'm gonna need a how to, on push button starting...
I don't know anything about how the ignition works... what does ACC connect to... what does ON connect to? Etc. Someone gimme a lesson.

still doing it?

[cherrington17]

not flooding... but the electrical issue still exists.

key in-->ACC (radio turns on) --> ON (car lights up) --> ACC doors unlock lights turn off.

key in-->ACC (radio turns on) --> ON (car lights up) --> Start = gauges turn off, doors unlock 3-4 times. (click click click, repeatedly unlocking)

no idea what it could be.. but its not very often that it does it.. maybe once a week. And the engine doesn't smell like gas anymore... so its not anything other then electrical issues. The car turns over great most times (except for this problem) and everything is running great.

[clutch1]

Pull the ign switch and open it up to see what it looks like!

Dunno EXACTLY how, but it can't be too hard.. remove lock cyl and see what's behind it. On a GA I was workin on (98'.. so not new style) it was on the opposite side of the column, two little screws and it came right off.

Might see that the contacts are are burnt up or something, causing bad contacts.

Before ya do that could always go ot the ign wires are test the "start" wire (gotta catch it when it's happening) because it sounds like that's when the issue comes up? See if it's gettin a 12v, or if you get something crazy bouncing all over and whatnot.

Go to that wiring diagram thread with the library link on here (forget what it is..) and IIRC the wiring diagrams also show what fuses the components are fed by and will say always hot, hot in run, etc.

[cherrington17]

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/cherrington17/Wiring%20Diagrams/Starting_Charging.jpg

I don't even know what wire could lead to that kinda problem.... when it does it, it doesn't start.. just turns over endlessly. When it doesn't do it.. it starts immediately.

There have been a few other times (very rare) where i get in, turn it to ON and the fuel pump doesn't prime. I turn it off, back to ON and it does. So clearly, its a bad connection somewhere. You think its IN the ignition cylinder, at the ON location?

Maybe a dirty contact so when i slide past it, the switch behind it isn't getting proper contact?

[clutch1]

Ohhh, I thought you meant it won't even crank when it has the issue!
Humm.. that's interesting. Could be at the ON connection in the cyl.. once in a while just not making contact or something. Or else you could check the fuel pump relay.. fuel pump ground (dunno exactly where that is),
It'd be interesting to know, when it cranks but doesn't start, does the fuel pump prime then or not? If you're ambitious, next time it happens check the fuel pump power/ground, as well as perhaps the relay operation.

Tough one, I'm just kinda crap shootin here.

[cherrington17]

99% of the time, the fuel pump is priming, yes.

[cherrington17]

well.. i'm still "testing" but i tore it all apart, got the ignition cylinder free from the dash... and noticed my gauge lighting wires were running directly behind it. (possibly against the back of it) i moved them to the side, and haven't had a problem since.

can't see how or why... but it seems to be the fix.

[clutch1]

Once in a while might've tweaked something juuuust enough to cause a problem?? Weird though.. hope it stays fixed!!

[cherrington17]

Once in a while might've tweaked something juuuust enough to cause a problem?? Weird though.. hope it stays fixed!!

Amen to that!