Car overheating, have changed EVERYTHING!

[crankycowboy]

Well my daughters 3.4L Alero overheated. It kept losing coolant out the overflow tube. I figured it was bubbling out because of a bad head gasket. The heads were really warped, so I decided to get another engine from a salvage yard. I checked compression on the "new" engine and all were between 130 and 150. Oil was clean etc. So I installed it. When running it, it gets hot. Ironically, all the coolant comes out of the overflow tube again. Since it was showing the same signs as it did with the previous engine, I assumed it had to be something in the cooling system. I replaced the reservoir and cap as many suggest. I replaced thermostat, water pump, and radiator. It's still doing the same thing. It gets really hot and pushes coolant out of the tube. I have "burped" it after every refill to no avail. Any suggestions as to what the problem is? Could I have gotten engine with a blown head gasket? (car was wrecked with 70k miles, so assumed that was the reason in salvage yard). If it was a head gasket and "blowing" out through exhaust side (to cause bubbling in water) wouldn't I lose compression? LIMG maybe? I'm at a loss. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[billytheman1188]

Hm.....could be another bad HG on that one but did you bleed the system with the little 7mm bolt on the heater tube? Or did you just bleed it by leaving the reservoir cap off? Is there no heat coming out of the vents? When i had my 3400 the HG went around 90k....LIMG around 65k.

[WhiteV6]

130-150 sounds low for a 3400. If it isn't boiling in the block from air pockets, it is probably a bad head gasket on that engine as well. Was it out of a van by chance? Those tend to blow the rear head gaskets more commonly than the cars do. You have already replaced everything else that it could be from what I see.

Get a coolant pressure tester and see if the cooling system holds.

[a.graham52]

get a block tester (about 60 bucks) and test your coolant system for exhaust gases. at this point that kind of money might be worth saving the heatache.

[crankycowboy]

Hm.....could be another bad HG on that one but did you bleed the system with the little 7mm bolt on the heater tube? Or did you just bleed it by leaving the reservoir cap off? Is there no heat coming out of the vents? When i had my 3400 the HG went around 90k....LIMG around 65k.

Sorry Billy, I should have mentioned that. Yes, I bled it via the brass fitting on the tube.

WhiteV6: Now, it was out of a 99 Alero. Hot air wasn't flowing out of the vents, but I backflushed the heater core, and now nice and warm. Wow, if it's another head gasket, I'm going to cry. Is there any way to verify short of tearing the whole darn thing apart if all the cylinders have compression, there is no "milk" in the oil, and no smoke blows out the tail pipe. And do you think it's just coincidental that it's behaving exactly the way the previous engine was?

[crankycowboy]

get a block tester (about 60 bucks) and test your coolant system for exhaust gases. at this point that kind of money might be worth saving the heatache.

Well that's part of the problem....everytime I run the car, I have to add more water (yes I'm only using water at this point as it would be way too expensive to use coolant seeing it pushes it out every time I run it). Would it running for just a short time and losing most of the liquid be ok to test even though I would have just added the water?

[lonnie]

Maybe a dumb question here but have you check the reservoir cap...mine was the last piece of the puzzle for my coolant problems?

[crankycowboy]

Maybe a dumb question here but have you check the reservoir cap...mine was the last piece of the puzzle for my coolant problems?

Not a dumb question. Seems to be the source of a lot of overheating issues on these cars; however, the reservoir and cap are new.

[rustyballs_69]

I'd say there is still air in the system or head gasket.

[[ion] C2]

unfortunately, it's probably the head gasket

milky oil/coolant is not visible most of the time. none of my head gasket issues have I ever encountered milky oil or coolant until it was taken apart.

smoke out the tailpipe is also not apparent unless it's severely blown.

also, water boils at 212° F, so regardless if there was a problem or not, it might still blow water out the reservoir and inefficiently cool the engine leading to warpage and more failure anyway due to boiling

[crankycowboy]

C2;615140']unfortunately, it's probably the head gasket

milky oil/coolant is not visible most of the time. none of my head gasket issues have I ever encountered milky oil or coolant until it was taken apart.

smoke out the tailpipe is also not apparent unless it's severely blown.

also, water boils at 212° F, so regardless if there was a problem or not, it might still blow water out the reservoir and inefficiently cool the engine leading to warpage and more failure anyway due to boiling

Ugh :cry: So would the suggestion be to tear it all down then? Just so frustrating that I'm back at square one after replacing the entire engine and so many other components.

[[ion] C2]

one way to check is to pull the spark plugs and observe whether they are wet (or if you can see coolant inside when you shine a light down there)

[TheEdgeofSanity]

we used blue devil head gasket repair in my dad's 1998 chevrolet astro with a blown head gasket. we were going to need to replace the engine anyway because its so high mileage so we gave it a shot. the stuff worked like a charm. maybe you should give it a shot?

[Hellfire5670]

Had the exact same problem as you, yes its the HG mine blew 3 times in the front and then blew my intake mani gasket for the 2nd time so aleros now parked.

[sleepyalero]

^ you shouldnt be going through gaskets that quick....

[a.graham52]

C2;615140']unfortunately, it's probably the head gasket

milky oil/coolant is not visible most of the time. none of my head gasket issues have I ever encountered milky oil or coolant until it was taken apart.

smoke out the tailpipe is also not apparent unless it's severely blown.

also, water boils at 212° F, so regardless if there was a problem or not, it might still blow water out the reservoir and inefficiently cool the engine leading to warpage and more failure anyway due to boiling

if coolant in the system is boiling at 212 then there is a problem. coolant under pressure (water or mix) will not boil till a higher temp.

with a COLD engine, if you remove the coolant cap and run the engine does coolant come out or atleast a tone of bubbles coming into the tank?

[[ion] C2]

woops, yeah, the boiling point raises to 250 °F @ 15 psi
¯\(ツ)/¯

[crankycowboy]

if coolant in the system is boiling at 212 then there is a problem. coolant under pressure (water or mix) will not boil till a higher temp.

with a COLD engine, if you remove the coolant cap and run the engine does coolant come out or atleast a tone of bubbles coming into the tank?

With the cap off, at idle, I don't really notice any bubbles....however, if I raise the rpm to around 3k, it starts to bubble out.

[crankycowboy]

C2;615149']one way to check is to pull the spark plugs and observe whether they are wet (or if you can see coolant inside when you shine a light down there)

I pulled all the plugs when I did a compression check and none had signs of wetness; nor fouling....all looked good.

[a.graham52]

With the cap off, at idle, I don't really notice any bubbles....however, if I raise the rpm to around 3k, it starts to bubble out.

is that with the engine cold before it gets a chance to warm up?

[crankycowboy]

is that with the engine cold before it gets a chance to warm up?

If I remember correctly (at work now), even if I start it with the cap off, a gush of water will push out.

[jawa]

head gasket

[crankycowboy]

If I remember correctly (at work now), even if I start it with the cap off, a gush of water will push out.

I just spoke with my buddy that was helping me on it, and he indicated that when it was cool...there were no issues with water pushing out....it was only when it was warm (both starting with cap off and with cap on while driving). What does that mean?

[a.graham52]

I would like to think that if you have a very bad blown head gasket that it would push water out no matter what the temp is. however there is an exception to everything. your sure the coolant level is perfict and not over full? your also sure you have a GOOD new cap? iv recieved bad ones before that were brand new.

[crankycowboy]

I would like to think that if you have a very bad blown head gasket that it would push water out no matter what the temp is. however there is an exception to everything. your sure the coolant level is perfict and not over full? your also sure you have a GOOD new cap? iv recieved bad ones before that were brand new.

That's what confuses me....the issues seem inconsistent. If it was just black and white, I wouldn't even be bothering you guys and would just be changing the heads/gaskets out.

The new cap is good. It holds pressure, it seems that the water being pushed out is for when it's over the 15 psi or whatever the rating is.

[[ion] C2]

still, it's a head gasket, for sure.

inconsistencies in cooling and when it blows out of the reservoir is one of the symptoms i experienced many times

[crankycowboy]

C2;615181']still, it's a head gasket, for sure.

inconsistencies in cooling and when it blows out of the reservoir is one of the systems i experienced many times

If you guys are certain that's what it is...I'll pull them off. It's just concerning since this is almost exactly the same behavior that I was experiencing with the other engine (and frankly, when I pulled the heads off, I couldn't find a spot in the gasket that looked like water was getting through). I still have compression, no water in oil, no smoke....just want to make sure.

I should have also mentioned, that the car has trouble idling (it's smooth as long as I keep my foot on the gas), someone in another thread said since I swapped engines and had battery off, the computer has to re-learn all the settings...hope that's all it is...or could that be another sign towards gasket?

[Goodman]

Sorry Billy, I should have mentioned that. Yes, I bled it via the brass fitting on the tube.

WhiteV6: Now, it was out of a 99 Alero. Hot air wasn't flowing out of the vents, but I backflushed the heater core, and now nice and warm. Wow, if it's another head gasket, I'm going to cry. Is there any way to verify short of tearing the whole darn thing apart if all the cylinders have compression, there is no "milk" in the oil, and no smoke blows out the tail pipe. And do you think it's just coincidental that it's behaving exactly the way the previous engine was?

That is why i would rather rebuilt the current engine that you already know what the problem is than buy another one which you know nothing about
If i ever buy a used engine i would rebuilt it all before doing the swap

Anyhow could a clogged radiator do that?
(two engine same problem hmmm...?)

If not the rad then HG for sure... another warp head maybe?

[Redog]

With the cap off, at idle, I don't really notice any bubbles....however, if I raise the rpm to around 3k, it starts to bubble out.

I just spoke with my buddy that was helping me on it, and he indicated that when it was cool...there were no issues with water pushing out....it was only when it was warm (both starting with cap off and with cap on while driving). What does that mean?

head gasket

Exactly.

I had a bad HG on mine, just like yours. Clean oil, no issues, but when I would floor it coolant would puke all over from the overflow tube. Ugh what a mess.

My HG issue (sounds like your too) is that combustion gasses are passing thru into the water jackets, pushing all coolant out. 15 psi of coolant pressure is going to lose agaisnt the 150 psi of combustion in whichever chamber the HG passage is cracked.

Not an easy fix, not a difficult one either. Just pick up a MLS gasket from Ben at WOT-Tech and new head bolts and do it.

[a.graham52]

this is why i suggest you purchase a block tester from a local parts store. that will tell you once and for al lif you have exhaust gasses in your coolant system and you can rest easy.

[crankycowboy]

Good points guys, and thanks for all the follow-ups, greatly appreciated. I'll go the block test route to be sure, and if all comes back as everyone is suggesting...I'll start pulling the heads ASAP as a local shop has them in stock for exchange. Is that specifically what the "block tester" is called? How does it work? Are they strips?

[jawa]

Google can be useful some times. Its not called one of the largest search engines around for nothing

[a.graham52]

http://www.tooltopia.com/uview-560000.aspx?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=UVU560000&utm_campaign=googlebase_18u&gclid=CK--isytza8CFQhN4AodIBwAaw

thats what it is. you sample "air" out of your coolant tank with the engine running. if there is combustion gasses present the blue fluid will turn yellow

[crankycowboy]

Well I went and got a block testing kit, and the instructions say to drain water down 2-3 inches so you don't suck water when you pump the bulb. The problem is the damn thing is bubbling so much at temperature that the tube just keeps sucking liquid up (regardless of how much I let drain down).....any other suggestions here?

[rustyballs_69]

If its bubbling out that bad you can hold the block tester just above the coolant and still suck in the exhaust fumes. I would say for sure its a head gasket if you start the engine cold and coolant starts coming out right away. If it was air in the system it would take a while for the coolant to come out of the overflow.

[crankycowboy]

Well since everyone was certain that heads were the problem, I went ahead and pulled them. It doesn't look blatantly obvious that a gasket is blown. Granted, a head could be warped and exhaust escaping into water jackets that way, but I really hope that's the problem. Please see pictures and offer your opinions.

[[ion] C2]

Would need much larger pictures to see detail, preferably at angles too. You have to really look close at the material all around each cylinder to see if there's any tearing or pieces torn off to tell.

This is how my GM gasket failed:
http://ion-productions.com/headGasket2/small009.jpg

[a.graham52]

give more detail of the bottom head gasket, far left.

[crankycowboy]

Here's more pictures.....I them over pretty good and don't see any "in your face" proof of head gasket failure, but I can only hope!

[a.graham52]

middle picture could possibly be your problem. see where all that rust has come into contact with the crush ring? problem you have coolant getting into that cylinder... maybe. do any of your pistons look different? maybe like one might have had a steam clean?

[[ion] C2]

Likely locations:
http://ion-productions.com/gasketDeterioration.jpg

[AGT]

Good job team

[a.graham52]

OMFG. hahahahahahaa

[crankycowboy]

Ok, so I had the heads pressure tested and valves checked...all good. They surface ground the heads (didn't tell me how much they took off to get them true). I got it all back together and now I have what sounds like a valve tap or rocker knock. I can't tell which side it's coming from. At first I assumed I got one (or more) of the push rods mixed up and put a exhaust (longer one) in a intake (shorter one's place). I pulled the front valve cover and checked...all of them are right. I hate to pull the alternator, coil pack and all those accessories to get to the back valve cover...but will do what I have to...just wanted to see if anyone had any ideas of what could be the problem before I dive too far in the wrong direction. Thanks.

[a.graham52]

its a portability the lifters have bled down and need to refill with oil. iv had 5.3L lifters do weird things. put head gaskets on one once and had zero compression because the lifters were holding the valves open.

see if you can find where the noise is coming from (front/back). did you leave a rocker arm loose?

hint... if there is only ONE tap noise then you didnt swap push rods around. then there would be two noises.

[crankycowboy]

Well I'm completely frustrated at this point. Went ahead and pulled back valve cover off and I did screw up on the push rods got the two middle ones swapped. The long one was bent. I had an extra so I just crossed my fingers and put them in correctly, re-torqued and re-assembled everything. Now, it's just missing really bad. I would assume maybe I bent a valve? What other issues could I have caused? I'm trying to determine whether it's worth messing with. This was my daughters car, but we already have her driving something else so I was just going to fix it up to sell. Suggestions, please.

[rustyballs_69]

Collapsed the lifter probably.

[a.graham52]

Collapsed the lifter probably.

nah, im willing to bet if the pushrod is bent, then the valve is probably bent too. if/once you pull the intake off you should be able to see it.

[crankycowboy]

I'm hoping when I pull everything off AGAIN..that this will be the last time. I have a couple of dumb questions. I know if I pull the head off for replacing the valve that I need to replace the gasket....but can the LIM gasket be reused since it's a different type or do I need to replace that as well? And since lifters were mentioned, should I replace those (or at least the one where the bend pushrod was)? Any other suggestions?

[crankycowboy]

I'm hoping when I pull everything off AGAIN..that this will be the last time. I have a couple of dumb questions. I know if I pull the head off for replacing the valve that I need to replace the gasket....but can the LIM gasket be reused since it's a different type or do I need to replace that as well? And since lifters were mentioned, should I replace those (or at least the one where the bend pushrod was)? Any other suggestions?

Well I guess I'm going to go through this once again and pull everythign off. No one had additional suggestions on what else I should replace so wish me luck :(

[jawa]

i had a miss like that before it turned out to be a bent valve, just to be safe replace all of them while you have it all apart and throw some new valve guide seals in it too, good luck to ya ,