No B.s. Engine Swap May Happen

[shortstar]

o.k. Thsi will be the 3rd time in the past year or so I have brought this up but I would like to do an engine swap. For uniqunesses sake and having the last Olds exclusive engine in my car I've always wanted to swap an intrigue's 3.5 DOHC 24valve shortstar motor into my alero. This all semed like a pipe dream till this week.

I walked into a performance auto clinic thats about 7 blocks from my dorm. I told them what I wanted, to basically swap a 4t65 E tranny and Lx5 motor into an 01 alero gls. The guy gave me a look like I didint know what I was talking about or asking for but asked his head custom work guy to talk to me scince buisness was a little slow. The guy asked me what I wanted and told him. I impressed him by listing all the things I new would need to be done. Suprisingly he said, basically uyou want the drivetrain of an 01 osv alero right? I was like, "yes thats exactly what I want!" So the guy says if you can locate a donor car, probably a rear end totaled intrigue or 3.5 aurora, he could do it for between 3500-5500 including custom fab parts for the engine mount and other accesories. I was amazed it was this cheap even on the high end so I talked to my dad.

My dad doesnt drive much anymoer just because he and my brother work at the same place and my brother drives him in the morning ot work. My Dad sold his car and since I am at college and most of the time have my car at home unsued uses it the few times he needs to go out and do somthing. He loves driving the alero more than any other FWD car my family has ever owned, and he even took it to the track without telling me, I havent seen the slips yet but it ran 15.5 through the 1/4 bone stock, but thats because he has the tires perfectly inflated and it was on a 40 degree day so I expect it to be much more like a 15.8 or so on a normal day.

Anyway my dad was even more enthusiastic about the idea than I was. He was like since your still paying insurance and you bought this car yourself I might as well chip in half, especially since this gets rid of that stupid intake manifold problem. Plus our other car at home right now is my moms 00' intrigue with the 3.5 and while we both like drining an alero better we both admit the way thazt engine pulls haard from 3000 to 6500 rpm is amazing. Plus it has such an awsome exhast even in the stock setup.

So the one thing that I was worried about was the lack of support for after market and the 3.5 which is very low. So I taled to the guy at the shop again and he said all the normal procedures that they do to enhance the northstar v8 works here, its litterally that similar an engine. Some of the boltons wont work bt he quoted me for another 2400 a 3 angle valve job, P&p heads and complete P&P job to the inside fo the engine. He thinks we can raise it from its health 215 stock hp and 230 ftlbs to 260-270 hp and about 290 ftlbs (crank of course) with that work. He also said for another few grand he could look into boring it out. He said he would have to reseach the strenght of the block but if its like the northstar, which it very much is, we should be abler to bore it out to 3.8-3.9 liters or so. The possiabilities are there. I have 3500 saved up and my dad said he'll through in at least 2 grand. Just need a few more to do everything at once.

This woudl be o badass if it works out. The guy likes me so he said he'll do the reasearch and consulting free over the next 2 months. Then if I commit and give a downpayment all I have to do is find a donor car to buy and we can be good to go this summer. Wouldt that be asome if we had a shortstar powered alero show up at ASS 2005?

I'm so excited I just hope this works out and I'm not let down by false hopes. I WILL make this happen.

[jackal2000]

thats awesome dude. i hope it all works out for ya.

[Redog]

Dude that would be cool. I'm drooling here.

Really what to see that at ASS :thumbsup:

[mike2002]

ok...few comments here, i used to own a 4.0 aurora and so i know quiet a bit about northstar engines, so i may be able to add some input

1. it CANNOT be bored, they're removeable sleeve's, dont remember the specifics but its been discussed and discussed guys wanting to bore out the 4.0 to a 4.6, they can't be bored

2. headwork p/p wont net you much gain, some guys did this to there 4.6L northstar, didn't have to much improvement. plus the 3.5 is designed of the second gen northstar, in which the heads are already re-worked over the first gen, this mod is pointless for the amount of money it costs

3. it was found that the exhaust manifolds were pretty restrictive on the 4.0/4.6 id imagine it be the same for the 3.5L

with headers/full exhaust/intake, im sure you could bring in around 250hp, in a 3,100lb car, that'll be fast, but i still wouldn't expect more than a high 14 1/4, but it would be sweet

[shortstar]

Mike 2002, I called the guy on his cell after you voiced your concerns about the modability of the shortstar. HE gave me some good and bad news, he had already started his research. The shop's Caddy expert says you can bore it out simply by removing the cylinder sleaves and doing some serious machining to the cylinder walls. Other things that can be easily done are to jck uo the compreshion a bit, the shortstar runs a lower compresihion than the northstars so that it can burn regular fuel, stock is 9.3 to 1. He says 10 to 1 is totally doable with only light mods. Some more serious mods could easily net 11 to 1 on 93 octane. He says your toally right about the intake manifolds and that some good cheaper horsepower right there. Headers are a problem as they dont make any for the shortstar, I might have to wait and get those later. He said that new heads would have to be made and ordered if we boared it out so thats some change there. So basically he gave me 2 options.

1. P&P, valve job, P&P manifolds and TB, CAI, PCM tuning plus actual transplant = 8000 not including donor car. My dad said he would pay half up to 5 grand, he really really wants this done, lol.

2. All of the above plus new heads to fit out boared out block= 11000

Thats a little highe for my taste and budget even with my dad's help. I'm seeing about how to get some extra cash by summer. I know you can get a lot more power out of a 3800 SC or even a bit more from a 3400 SC but I want the engine to be pure Olds and I want it to be NA more than pure speed. Yes I want as much speed as I can get but I want to get it through this engine and I want it NA.

I also asked him about the 4.0/4.6 boring situation and he said its the same way, it takes a lot of money work and know how to remove the sleaves and machine the cylinders and make new heads with the exactness you need to make it all work. He said he knows the northstar block was deisgned to be bored out up to 5.4 liters, it just never has. that means the 3.5 could be bored out to 4.0 liters. Still lots of research to do but thats what he said his lunch break + 2 hours after work turned up. Ill keep you guys updated.

[mike2002]

it was my understanding that the sleeves are not very thick, and if it was to be "bored" new sleeves would have to be fabricated, its been a little while though

11k on just a engine is outrageous considering what kind of power you'd end up with

[shortstar]

I know the L67 has been in Oldsmobiles in the past buts it is not an Olds born and bred engine, its a buick engine neither is the 3400, corprate GM The 3.5 and 4.0 were co developed with Caddy though and only used in Oldsmobiles throughout there lives They were known to be part of Oldsmobiles "premium V" series of engine with whoch they did so well in the Indy Racing League. I think its worth it since I will only be paying about half. The guy thinks without boring out I can make almost 300 crank at 12 to 1 compreshion and even more, hes not really sure how much he says he needs to crunch some numbers with the extra half liter.


If he can get me even 38- crank I will settle for the built up 3.5 probably I dont think the estra half liter is worth it.

[Crazytaxi37]

For all of you who think that this swap is overpriced. Think about this. Every single HP will cost you $100. Truth.. That's the going rate.

[MikeSS]

I think a 3.5 making 250HP would net you low 14's easy.

That 3400 S/C did a 13.8 and it isn't making much more power then that

[jturkey69]

i like the power band of the shortstar...wind it up and go for it, but i wouldnt spend a lot on the motor itself...more on tuning and finding the ignition and motors limits, and make some headers for it, and shave the heads if possible, otherwise thats it. the 3.4 is more of a torque motor where as the 3.5 is more of the high winding 8000 rpm motor......dam think about that..lol

[shortstar]

yeah, he said we're deffinetly kicking the redline up to 7 grand, maybe more. The nice thing is while its a high reving engine it still makes a very good amount of lowe end power even though its a DOHC. I will get a minimum of 280 hp with matching touque out of this and we both think we can do better.

Like Crazy said its not that overpriced. Even if we went all out and had it bored and stuff Im only paying 5-6 grand. Thats only a little more than a 3400 SC kit before installation. Thank god my dad's footing 5 grand worth. We had an L67 car and while we both liked the touque and the supercharge whine was pretty cool we like the more even powerband if the shortstar and it nakes nuch nicer sounds. Ill have to post sound clips of the intrigue when I go home next weekend.

[AGT]

Okay Okay...I am gonna go out on a limb here and say that you want to keep this car for a little while. Right? While still having all the HP you can. Well if you bore it out than you are asking for the life to be shot to hell. That is the last thing I would do to an engine. I agree that you should upgrade the 3.4 V6 and impress the bigger engine holders than just take their engine and say you have a smaller car with it. IMO thats all. We have good upgradable engines and if you do it right you can make em smoke bigger engines. :thumbsup:

[kwhauck]

Originally posted by MAlero@Oct 21 2004, 07:43 AM
I think a 3.5 making 250HP would net you low 14's easy.

That 3400 S/C did a 13.8 and it isn't making much more power then that
there are some exceptions. ex. $800 for TOG Headers= $800 / 19 WHP = approx $42.10 per horsepower.... :thumbsup: you are right though....

[shortstar]

YEs I plan on keeping this car for a long time, if not fo ever. Its a clear title and I wiul likely buy another car as a comuter in the next 3 years or so.

I forgot about engine longevity with boring out. YOu just convinved me not to do that. I can still jack the compresion, P&P everything, valve job, shave the heads get headers made, do exhast and CAI and it will be making a lot more than the 3400 with similar mods. The whole point of this is for a unique ride with good power.

The 2001 OSV concept made 245 hp and 255 ftlbs from a 3.5 with the olny mods being CAI and exhast. Imaging what you could do with headers P&p shaving heads and jacking the compreshion up if you already get that much power from just those 2 mods.

Pleae people some of you cant get it through your heads lol. I am an Oldsmobile Fanatic. I want a unique all Olds car on my terms. I dont care if I could mod a peice of rice civic to run 11's for the same price. thats not what Im trying to do. I know your just trying to look out for my dollar per HP and thanks for being concerned but I WANT it this way lol.

[kwhauck]

(take cover lame plug ahead) i have a unique olds for sale that you could buy from me and put it in the 12s consistenly for less than 6k....including the buying price of the car...check it out here (http://invision.aleromod.com/index.php?showtopic=7186)

[mike2002]

what id do is headwork (P&P, shaving), headers, exhaust, intake, bigger tb (whats a 3.5dohc tb anyways?) intake manifold. if the trans ever goes, they do make plenty of 4t65's with different FDR's, not sure what stock is, 3.29? anyone know? 3.69 would be sweet if you had 7k shifts, but that'll be HARD on the transmission, but then again, the cars pretty light

you should also get in in the OSV bodykit groupbuy if you want a osv alero replica, all this money on engine work would be a shame to have it look stock, or a razzi kit....

[shortstar]

I really do like the OSV body it and if I get any that woul be it but I am pooring all my resources into this project now. Mike the Mechanic, said that that he was talking to a buddy on the westcoast today, he called me about it I didnt call him and his buddy said that the northstars and their derivatives can get a reliable 11.5 to 1 with some machining. He know people who have gotten them as hogh as 12.6 to 1 but that was with tons of trial and error on the valves So I'll be happy with a mid 11 to 1. The guy mike was talking ot formally worked for an IRL team that used the aurora v8 in racing, well the basic block and such. Mike said he honestly thinks that we can get the hp up to 300 crank unbored, Hp will pass tourque though with the hgiher revs but wil only be about 10 ftlbs behind.

Tranny wise I can get a 4t65e with 3.29 gear ratio but we ae also goin go to see what we can do about new gearing. With a 7+k redline that would be nuts.

Still lots more reasearch to be done and questions to be asked.

Alero Boy, I woul snap up your calais in a hartbeat if I had an extra 2200 lying around but I don't, if you dont mind though I will post it on another GM car site, chearsandgears.com there are a number of people there who have a genuine love for Oldsmobiles like us and would treat it tight. There is even one guy that is selling one of his cars, he's owned about 5 oldsmobiles and currently has a bravada and an intrigue, who wants to buy a cheap car. Ill wait for you to respond before I post a link over there.

[AGT]

Do you know this mechanic? Or do you just know this mechanic? :unsure: Big difference...someone who is making money or someone who is interested in the project. You said yourself that the shop was not busy indicating that the overall day for this guy includes selling work(his qoute 3500-5500). That is a big range. My suggestion stands. :D

[mike2002]

keep us posted! i agree on loving winding up the 3.5dohc, never driven one, but i loved the way my 4.0 wound up, from a role, my old aurora would eat my 3.4 alero for breakfast, that thing FLEW from 50-125 effortlessly, my alero runs out of steam....:( but it didn't have much torque, and i had the better gearing (3.71, some had 3.48)

[shortstar]

yeah the 3.5 is a little light on low end tourque compared to the 3400 but its no slouch compared to asian DOHC engines, also like you said at the giher end premium V engines are crazy at top end accelleration. I know when I floor the intrigue at 60 it goes to its 108 limiter in about the same time it takes to get to 60 which equalls a super fast top end. ITs probably more time but thats how it feels.

Im goign more for a quick show car than a balls to the wall streat car. That my goal. I am going to get the tranny regeared to take advantage of a faster reving 7+k rpm built shortstar. Its going to be pretty cool. Plus the 3.5 is a pretty reliable engine, our intrigues is pushing 80k with no maitenance and no problems ever. Stil running really strong. I am so phsyed I gotta save all the cash I can to do as much as I can while the engine is going in. Ill keep you guys posted.

[jturkey69]

mike2002 your aurora must have been a normal package and not the AUTOBAHN package,(which is rare i guess??)

shortstar if i were you id scour the junkyards online even if you had to, to get the drivetrain, i know presonally when i totaled my intrigue (3800) i could have bought it for 500 bils, but didnt. so getting the drivetrain from a junker would be great, and looking up here in the northwoods and around illinois would almost be your best bet, not sure why its cheaper up here for a junker, but i have seen prices for gagt drivetrains for 550 to 700 with computer as well.

good luck, and i hope you can cut a few breaks here and there and make this work! :thumbsup:

[mike2002]

Originally posted by jturkey69@Oct 22 2004, 08:20 AM
mike2002 your aurora must have been a normal package and not the AUTOBAHN package,(which is rare i guess??)

shortstar if i were you id scour the junkyards online even if you had to, to get the drivetrain, i know presonally when i totaled my intrigue (3800) i could have bought it for 500 bils, but didnt. so getting the drivetrain from a junker would be great, and looking up here in the northwoods and around illinois would almost be your best bet, not sure why its cheaper up here for a junker, but i have seen prices for gagt drivetrains for 550 to 700 with computer as well.

good luck, and i hope you can cut a few breaks here and there and make this work! :thumbsup:
nope, i had the autobahn. autobahns had 3.71 gearing, nons had 3.48. thats what i meant by saying my low end was still lacking, even though i had the better gearing (more aggressive gearing). i can imagine the "base" model must have been really sluggish from a stop. a full intake and exhaust really opened that car up. also meant i could do 140mph instead of 108, which i proved.....on a track...of course :unsure:

here's my cardomain if anyone cares

http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/399198

[99ALERO]

i dont like the 3.5 DOHC. Alot of the Intrigues and Auroras come back with problems, some think like what is going on with alot of 3400's. If I was you i would Supercharge the 3400 because it is more cost effective and you will get well over 215 HP. Plus any other mods you have will compliment it. 3800 SC swap is a tough one because all of the mods you need to do to the body of the car to make it fit. All though at the track i seen a 3800 SC in a saturn SC1. Ran low 14's.

[shortstar]

errrrrr, I know its not an economical swap and Im not looking to run low 13's, id be very happywith mid to low 14s. Im going more for the showcar/tech showcase type car. I want the car to have some juice but Im not looking to win any open quarter miles at the drag strip. Im focusing on getting the engine in, with an internalbuild up and as I get money I can have custom headers and stuff like that made for it, pricey I know, but this is a long term car for me.

[Final-Reality]

Shorstar I'm with you, I'd go with the shortstar swap...

Why don't you do internal engine work while it's not in the car? Such as boring it out, putting more aggressive cams in, port/polish the heads etc etc, basic stuff that'll put it up to 250+HP easily. Honestly I have no idea what type of aftermarket there is for the 3500 but I can't imagine it's very big, but the same can definately be said for the 3400 as well. It doesnt even have a single aftermarket cam available for it yet and it's been out how long? :P

[shortstar]

^^^ final, if you think teh aftermaket for the 3400 is bad the 3.5 after market is nonexistant.

This is a very well documented, digitally blueprinted engine though with many performance upgrades working with it that work with Cadilac's northstar v8.

Boring it out is, pretty much out the window right now. To little retun on ivestment plus reliability issue longterm there.

With a valve job (probably new valve springs top), P&P, P&p and bored out manifolds, 90 mm LS1 TB fits Ive just found out, CAI, exhast, and here's ther big one, customn headers since the dont make any I am aware of. (Headers estimate is 1200 from RSM already talked to them.) With these mods, Jacking up the compreshion ration to mid 11s and uping the redline to about 7 grand with a high geared tranny this car will be quicker than most if not all NA 3.4s. No way will it take down an SC but Im not trying to.

I should be making 280-300 hp cranch with similar tourque numbers. 250-260ish at the wheels. IT should make for a quick and very very unique car.

Thanks for you support final. Thats what the plans look like as of now but they cahnge daily almost.

[mike2002]

so whats the final "estimate" on price of the whole project? i know you said 11k before, but plans have changed... also, is it possible to use the 4t65hd instead of the 4t65? i know they make 3.29 and 3.69 4t65hd's. if your going to replace the trans anyways, you might as well get one that can take a beating.....but 7k shifts would be hard on it, hopefully being in a lighter car will counter that.

[shortstar]

We're kinda at an Impass right now. Have a semi solid estimate. The Shortstar, harness and PCM will cost about 1500, HD 4t65 with 3.69 ratios will cost 1000 rebuilt, TB, valve springs custom cams, custom headers and CAI will run me abbout 3000, Machining and custom programming and tooling costs (basically P&Ping any and everything alonw tih fitiing all the mods together and tuning will run about 2500, the transplant will cost 2500, minus 500 for the cars current drivetrain= 10,000.

Still more fine tuning research going on, plus the guy is seeing wheather he can get, GM's internal digitial blue prints for the engine so he can do sim work on his comp. Also seeing about who to get to make the custim headers and cams for a decent price. Thats the 2 big variables in the parts bin. If we can get all the stuff on budget he wil gaurentee me 280 hp and 280 ftlbs but he expects to get higher, right around 300 crank.

The basic reseach should be done soon. Then I need to make the last 2000, plus anouther 1500 so ocontigency cash and I will be able to start buying parts and getting work done. I hope to have it ready for ASS but am not sure if it willl be done by then. Ill keep you guys updated as always.

[Final-Reality]

I think you'll likely have to wait on the custom headers until after the engine is in the car...

[springs fastest alero]

Shortstar,
only thing i would sugest is doign your homework on the shop and what other swaps like this they have pulled off. also it might not be a bad idea to shop arround.
the price seems high for some of the work they are doing.
granted its all custom and all experemental it still seems high.

my other thing is why not use the 4.0?
its still olds only and there are more things available for it.
here are some sites that may be helpfull.

http://www.tranzgenic.com/www/home.php
aaron the owner of the site has an intregue that he is modding
you might see what all he has or can make for you.
he is just starting but he is very reasonable.

www.fastfwdperforamnce.com
mike has access to a machine shop.
he has made many custom parts for the 3.4 dohc engine
if there is somthing you want made he might do it
mike would need to see potential to make moeny from it though so if you can get other shortstar owners in on it, it would help

http://www.chrfab.com/
they deal mostly with northstar and 4.0 engines but they may have some good info
and if you think about going 4.0 they have parts for ya.

as to everyone elses comments
shortstar stated what he wanted to do
he honestly didn't ask for 30+ posts askin if its practical

honestly I'd NEVER do a L67
the engine is played out. its nothing special anymore.
I'd only mod an l67 in a car originally equipped with one

[mike2002]

the aurora 4.0 is a huge engine, it barely fit in my aurora its bigger than a Ls1. also, it has the same exterior dimensions as the 4.6, so that would be a better choice, and VERY sick.

[shortstar]

I am giving some thought to the aurora v8 only thing is its massive. I know it fits as Some Olds concepts had the v8 in there but Im worried about weigvht distrubution and stuff. Thanks for the links springs. I am going to cheach a few more sites, not just going on this guys word though he seasm to know what he's doing. Those links will really help.

[tenny]

if you do the v8, you'll have to do a lot of suspension upgrades so factor that into the price, also your weight distribution isnt going to be nearly as good, so you'll have to do something about that too.

[kddanger]

In my gm performance parts catalog is an aluminum 60degree front drive mount block it can be bored 3.525-3.582 (I don't think it is what every thinks of with all this talk of engine swaps but, I if somebody wanted alot of power and a very light weight package it is something to think on.)

[kddanger]

after reading more on the whole engine swap thing maybe that was a bad idea. We do IMCA dirt track racing around here, some pretty good engine builders around here take to the idea of basic foundations for the best punch. I don't think most of you are into the ideal stepping back 10 years worth technology but those motors have alot more room for unrestricted power, what everyone wants and they probaly are cheaper to build. typing this made my think of grand national alero.

[springs fastest alero]

Originally posted by kddanger@Oct 24 2004, 07:41 PM
In my gm performance parts catalog is an aluminum 60degree front drive mount block it can be bored 3.525-3.582 (I don't think it is what every thinks of with all this talk of engine swaps but, I if somebody wanted alot of power and a very light weight package it is something to think on.)
the aluminum block only cuts 45 lbs. and at its 3500 price tag is not very cheap. not to mention it was based after the 2.8-3.1 engines not the 3100/3400
also if I rember correctly the maximum bore size on its dry iron sleaves was smaller than a stock 3400 bore.
so to get it out to 3400 you would have to install new sleaves