Electric Powered Supercharger

[FormulaNERD]

READ THE WHOLE POST. NO ASININE COMMENTS IF YOU HAVENT READ IT ALL.

http://www.boosthead.com

ok, this conversation came up in another thread, and i didnt want to continue to hijack it, so i created it's own thread.

and i'm also confident that thomas (geoff) knight will join this site when he see's all the refferals from alermod.com when you guys click the link about and check out his site.... so lets get this discussion started, i'll start off with the info from the other thread, and then other people can comment and bash on it untill geoff from boosthead (the creator) comes in and proves everyone wrong as i've seen in a few other forums.

believe me, when i first heard about electric superchargers i thought it was a joke, and i still think most of them are. but when i came across the thomas knight electric turbocharger i saw there was hope, but i still wasnt convinced. well i checked back into the project and now i see that he's using the good stuff, an eaton "roots" type supercharger, powered by 3 motors from an auxillary battery setup. and it works. or so i think.



Originally posted by FormulaNERD+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FormulaNERD)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>i'd rather go with an electric supercharger. universal, and cheaper.[/b]

Originally posted by VTOLDS+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (VTOLDS)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Electric Superchargers are worthless, I researched them a couple years ago there is so much Power Drain you mine as well just not have it on at all.
[/b]
<!--QuoteBegin-VTOLDS@

Here are some websites for Electric Superchargers, I think it is laughable how stupid they are. It is a good idea, and they do work but I think most of you will agree with me that a Electic Supercharger cant compare to a real one.

http://www.esuperchargers.com/
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/
http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/better_20el..._20supercharger
http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0406tur_knight/
[/quote]

<!--QuoteBegin-FormulaNERD

It is a good idea, and they do work but I think most of you will agree with me that a Electic Supercharger cant compare to a real one.Â;-)
[/quote]

a "real one" is parasitic to the engine and uses the engine to power it. i dont see how that is beneficial.

you can take a stock engine, with 170 whp, and supercharge it at 5 psi with a "real one" and get about 200whp (30whp gain) out of it.

then you can take the same stock engine, 170whp, add a non-parasitic electric supercharger and get about 228whp (58whp) @ 5psi.

so tell me how again that an electric charger cant compare to a real one. if you're talking about inefficiency, i agree, it doesnt compare, a real supercharger IS more inefficient.
[/b][/quote]

[Wildman]

I think I heard about thie 3 motor electric supercharer on tv somewhere or something. Can't remember. While the benefits would be great, mainly the fact that it would be cheaper, let alone the HP, I would think that that would put a heavy strain on the whole electrical system. But if they have found a way around it, then maybe this electric SC dream would finally become a viable performance option. Ive never seen a successful electric SC, but if this guy can come up with one, then thats great. Still too early for me to throw around any judgements on the product, but I will keep an open mind.

[FormulaNERD]

yea, he uses military spec batteries in the trunk, they're lightweight, he also uses two up front and removes the heavy ass car battery, so he's not adding too much weight in the end.

there isnt really any strain on the electrical system, i mean, the batteries charge off of the alternator, but they only pull so much from what the alt can put out, he reccomends a higher amp alt for quicker charging, and says it's possible with the right equipment to get a 1:1 discharge:recharge rate.

also during boost the alternator is bypassed completely, so there is no draw from it, and the batterys are completely discharging, and not trying to recharge any.

again, this is more like a nos replacement, push button for 15 seconds (or more if you got money for batteries) of fame. and for the nos enthusiast, you know how expensive nos can become (refills) imagine "refilling" the batteries in the staging lane waiting for your next race.

as a drag racer i can safely say that this system is for me. i'm not a ricer, and dont care for constant power on my commute to work, the alero owns to begin with.

[FormulaNERD]

oh, and in a v6 avenger he had all the batteries up front, he said it was pretty sweet cause it added traction, and he could hook up like nothin on street tires.

he took a stock older altima (98 i think)AUTO and took it from 17.8-18 quarter mile, and brought it down to 15.1 or something, with just 5psi i believe... pretty impressive. no other mods.

On Saturday we finished the ESC-400â„¢ installation on our Nissan Altima 4-CYL, and man, this thing SMOKES! We're burning the tires all the way through 1st gear on an auto-trans, 4,000LB slug. We're scheduling dynos ASAP and can't wait to see the results

Well, the good news is that our Nissan Altima 4-CYL yielded three awesome runs in a row, climbing from a 105HP max stock to a 184HP peak with the ESC-400â„¢ (70HP avg. HP). All three were nearly identical, which proves the consistency of our system

[alerored04]

if it works the way formula explains it it sounds like it could work fairly well. Now to find a test car! Volunteers??

[FormulaNERD]

oh, and if anyone in the miami area wants a ride in the altima, he'll show you how stock it is, and take you for a spin, and when i say spin, there's alot of burnt rubber involved. hehe.

[FormulaNERD]

Originally posted by alerored04@Nov 23 2004, 07:12 PM
if it works the way formula explains it it sounds like it could work fairly well. Now to find a test car! Volunteers??
the kit in production is for "smaller engines" <2.8l. but he has a larger one coming out soon... and we wont need a test car, the kit is almost completely universal, and compares to installing a high end stereo system.

[bigd6983]

it sounds good its just the way he puts it there is a serious drain on the electrical system.........and its more like a nitrous system than it is a supercharger........and the fact that it cant be run constantly just sucks. i dunno about you guys but if there was a way to run a low boost of say 30 horses consistently, and then track days bump it up to 70 that you can do on runs and then recharge it that seems more realistic to me. id be happy with a 30 horse gain that i could constantly use that maybe only activated at WOT compared to having this and once you use it, gotta let it recharge..........like set it up with switches to where you can turn two motors off and run 1 for a 30 horse constant setting, flip a switch and its set of 70 horse short span runs.......

tell me what u guys think

[FormulaNERD]

Originally posted by bigd6983@Nov 23 2004, 07:19 PM
it sounds good its just the way he puts it there is a serious drain on the electrical system.........and its more like a nitrous system than it is a supercharger........and the fact that it cant be run constantly just sucks. i dunno about you guys but if there was a way to run a low boost of say 30 horses consistently, and then track days bump it up to 70 that you can do on runs and then recharge it that seems more realistic to me. id be happy with a 30 horse gain that i could constantly use that maybe only activated at WOT compared to having this and once you use it, gotta let it recharge..........like set it up with switches to where you can turn two motors off and run 1 for a 30 horse constant setting, flip a switch and its set of 70 horse short span runs.......

tell me what u guys think
ok, first of all there's really no SIGNIFICANT strain on the electrical system. during "boost" the alternator is bypassed. and during recharge the military spec batteries he uses only pull from the alternator what the alternator can put out.

yes, it's more like nitrous, and i'm pretty sure i said that.

your idea also sounds good... 30hp constant, 70@full drain. and it doesnt seem unrealistic. maybe he'll take this idea into consideration.

[Grouch]

Haven't read through the whole thing as of yet, but just wanna throw this into the mix:
http://60degreev6.com/modules.php?op=modlo...cf7ae62f811a60b (http://60degreev6.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=55&page=1&POSTNUKESID=b47ff994cda5e931acf7ae62f811a60b)

[FormulaNERD]

good link, but reading is also good... that link is irrelevant for the most part, because this system doesnt run off of the alternator.

hmmm, 6 lightweight batteries, at 668 CCA each... that's 4008 CCA's at the push of a button, i'm not sure what that equates to in the scheme of things, but that's alot of power.

good post though.

[bigd6983]

Originally posted by Grouch@Nov 23 2004, 07:05 PM
Haven't read through the whole thing as of yet, but just wanna throw this into the mix:
http://60degreev6.com/modules.php?op=modlo...cf7ae62f811a60b (http://60degreev6.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=55&page=1&POSTNUKESID=b47ff994cda5e931acf7ae62f811a60b)
i like the link grouch and its appropriate, all though i love the design of a electric supercharger cause when perfected it should have no drain on the car to produce boost, unlike turbos(backpressure + heat) and supercharger (takes hp to make hp)......

and formula the only questions id have about my theory is the way his set up is would be would just one motor going be sufficient for a 30 horse gain or would it need 2 motors? and would not running all 3 motors create some kind of disfigured air flow from the other stand still motor(s).......

i think this idea is a more realisitic street idea, when i say street most of us alero owners drive our aleros daily, and having this type of boost at our fingertips yet not would bug the crap out of me.....

shoot the idea at him, see what he thinks......see if he can do some runs, find out what the amperage draw off one motor is, off two motors.....

I think with a highly rated battery, upgraded alternator and wiring, this could be reliable without having to add unnecessary equipment in the trunk which i think would be a key point in selling a lot of these.....

[bigd6983]

my bad for double posting

[FormulaNERD]

i'm looking for some of your answers bigd, i saw them yesterday... for now check this out. stock 2.4 altima... esc on, then esc off.

http://www.boosthead.com/installation_docs/doc30.jpg

auto v6 dodge avenger. ESC @5.5 psi, headers, 3" exhaust, 60 mm throttle body = 96.5 hp gain..... at 5.5psi. did i already mention that that's at only 5.5psi?

dyno charts here....

http://www.boosthead.com/installation_docs/doc24.htm

[bigd6983]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...sspagename=WDVW (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7936084922&category=33741&sspagename=WDVW)
explain to me why something like this would not work, if it were to creat 2.1 lbs of boost thats enough for 20 horses or so......if it worked, has anybody on here actually tried it before we all say no it wont work?? and if someone has maybe a more power would be a fix to this problem.....

and im sure there was a way that we could get this hooked up to our electronic throttle or put a switch next to it that would open it at WOT.....

[Vtolds]

Some of the things that formualNERD has said make sence to me and kinda makes me look at them differently. But I still think it aint worth the money becuase of having to get specail batteries and then trunk relocation kits and all that wiring and the possibility of having to get a Larger AMP alternator. If you only wasnt 20 to 30 hp at full throttle than this is for you but if you want 80 hp without having to flip a switch just get a Parasitic Supercharger as Formula called it.

[bigd6983]

this thing can gain up to 60 horses which is a lot for the price of it......."parasitic" superchargers are only a shade more then that but cosr a couple thousand more.........i agree, i dont like the fact that it doesnt last like nitrous, i like the electric part of it, easier to deal with than turbos and superchargers, hopefully it all gets figured out and we come up with usefullness of this idea....there is a lot of tweeking to be done though.......

[FormulaNERD]

yea, you're right, and geoff of TKT says that in is faq.

you're basically getting more HP, at half the price, and the con is a few 15 second bursts.

[FormulaNERD]

Originally posted by bigd6983@Nov 23 2004, 09:21 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...sspagename=WDVW (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7936084922&category=33741&sspagename=WDVW)
explain to me why something like this would not work, if it were to creat 2.1 lbs of boost thats enough for 20 horses or so......if it worked, has anybody on here actually tried it before we all say no it wont work?? and if someone has maybe a more power would be a fix to this problem.....

and im sure there was a way that we could get this hooked up to our electronic throttle or put a switch next to it that would open it at WOT.....
because that is a cheap fan, and TKT sells eaton superchargers.

his system is the only patented system, and it was patented with no questions asked, that NEVER happens for anything.

at WOT your intake is sucking more air in than that one is putting out, so in fact that is making your hp go down... at wot.

[bigd6983]

so formula is there a motor that you think is capable of say between 25-35 horsepower gain (give or take) that aint going to draw the power like that eaton does.......

thats what i think will benefit our cars.......no one wants to modify our cars that much, a nitrous install would be easier, and cheaper but would eventually catch up........although the ugliness of having those extra batteries in ur trunk would suck......

[Vtolds]

Back when I researched Electric Superchargers I saw one with, I think it was 3 fans and they turned on the minute you went full throttle and didnt shut off till you let off the gas they even had a cool video to go with it of them blowing crap around with the fans.

[FormulaNERD]

battery sizes...

http://turbomagazine.com/tech/0406tur_knight06_z.jpg

[FormulaNERD]

the eaton is the supercharger, the motors are completely seperate

i'm sure when he checks his websites logs and sees refferals, he'll be here to answer any other questions, i'm just as curious as you are on this concept, and i see it as a possibility, but what do i know really?

and as for batteries, you could have a custom enclosure, or have two stacked on each side, and not take up very much usable trunk space.

[bigd6983]

yea im not diggin those batteries........

[FormulaNERD]

Originally posted by VTOLDS@Nov 23 2004, 09:38 PM
Back when I researched Electric Superchargers I saw one with, I think it was 3 fans and they turned on the minute you went full throttle and didnt shut off till you let off the gas they even had a cool video to go with it of them blowing crap around with the fans.
i'd like to see the video if you could find it... for poops and giggles, but simply put, fans do not, and will not ever work.

[bigd6983]

i get what ur saying formula......we just need some lower amperage motors or the ability to adjust them for everyday driving capabilities and i think it would work out and be a bigger success compared to the nitrous style charger......

[FormulaNERD]

i agree.


engine bay
http://turbomagazine.com/tech/0406tur_knight04_z.jpg

trunk
http://turbomagazine.com/tech/0406tur_knight05_z.jpg
i think the cables could be easily hidden, and the battery boxes dont look too horrible closed.

[Vtolds]

Originally posted by FormulaNERD+Nov 23 2004, 10:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FormulaNERD @ Nov 23 2004, 10:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-VTOLDS@Nov 23 2004, 09:38 PM
Back when I researched Electric Superchargers I saw one with, I think it was 3 fans and they turned on the minute you went full throttle and didnt shut off till you let off the gas they even had a cool video to go with it of them blowing crap around with the fans.
i'd like to see the video if you could find it... for poops and giggles, but simply put, fans do not, and will not ever work. [/b][/quote]
What was funny is with 3 of the fans stacked the thing was so long I dont think you could fit it under any hood especially when you put a filter on it. I'll try my best to find the Site bu they are probably long out of business.

[FormulaNERD]

i cant wait to see geoff's 10 second 1st gen neon, electricharged.

[FormulaNERD]

and another thing i thought about....

everyone is complaining that you only get 15 seconds, at first i was complaining as well.

but with a projected HP of 313 (cai, headers, 6psi). you'll hit your 108 govenor before the 15 seconds is up, and it'll be recharged by the time you slow down/stop/etc.

i havent checked battery prices and such, but i think that the ESC, S&S headers, and CAI would still have you checking in at under 4000, possibly under 3500. take that RSM.

[bigd6983]

let me know what he thinks he can do........i like the eaton style though......a lot of design needs to be figured out under the hood though, having the filter that close 2 the engine i dont like

just let him know my ideas formula and see what he can come up with.....

[bigd6983]

Originally posted by FormulaNERD@Nov 23 2004, 09:00 PM
and another thing i thought about....

everyone is complaining that you only get 15 seconds, at first i was complaining as well.

but with a projected HP of 313 (cai, headers, 6psi). you'll hit your 108 govenor before the 15 seconds is up, and it'll be recharged by the time you slow down/stop/etc.
yea and that would work for the track, but im talkin about everyday driving, some more passing power, things like that, if im stuck behind a car and see an opening but need 2 get on it a little i dont wanna hafta push a button for it to be there, i want it to just be there......

[FormulaNERD]

i'm almost positive that the filter you see is just regular WAI when the s/c is bypassed.

[Vtolds]

That is defintely alot different than what you get if you just google it.http://www.turbonator.com/Assets/PTCruiser.jpg

[FormulaNERD]

Originally posted by bigd6983+Nov 23 2004, 10:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bigd6983 @ Nov 23 2004, 10:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-FormulaNERD@Nov 23 2004, 09:00 PM
and another thing i thought about....

everyone is complaining that you only get 15 seconds, at first i was complaining as well.

but with a projected HP of 313 (cai, headers, 6psi). you'll hit your 108 govenor before the 15 seconds is up, and it'll be recharged by the time you slow down/stop/etc.
yea and that would work for the track, but im talkin about everyday driving, some more passing power, things like that, if im stuck behind a car and see an opening but need 2 get on it a little i dont wanna hafta push a button for it to be there, i want it to just be there...... [/b][/quote]
no no no, you dont understand, it's not just pushbutton power... it has been done for WOT as well.

and i'm surprised nobody has brought up fuel issues. a simple FMU can be used to inject more fuel at WOT... no real worries for a/f and stuff like that for turbo / s/c

and as for passing... i'm guessing with 313 hp, 60-100 speeds are far quicker than anyone would need.

[bigd6983]

Originally posted by FormulaNERD@Nov 23 2004, 09:00 PM
i havent checked battery prices and such, but i think that the ESC, S&S headers, and CAI would still have you checking in at under 4000, possibly under 3500. take that RSM.
nooo it doesnt compare to on hand power, theres a difference.......
the fact its on hand whenever i need it is enough to sway me and a lot of people into buying another product over his.....

i myself would love to go supercharged when funds permit, i want something ready 2 go, no switches, no batterys to worry about being charged......

just slam on my foot and listen to the whinning lol.......

[FormulaNERD]

i agree... in some ways.

i dont mind the batteries if the overall cost is cheaper than RSM and i'm looking at 313 HP at 6psi, without worrying about upgrading internals.

and an automatic engagement at WOT, or even 75% (normal superchargers are the same way)

also IN THEORY, the same supercharger, running on a belt, at the same specs with the same mods and psi will only get you 275hp

[bigd6983]

Originally posted by FormulaNERD+Nov 23 2004, 09:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FormulaNERD @ Nov 23 2004, 09:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by bigd6983@Nov 23 2004, 10:05 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-FormulaNERD@Nov 23 2004, 09:00 PM
and another thing i thought about....

everyone is complaining that you only get 15 seconds, at first i was complaining as well.

but with a projected HP of 313 (cai, headers, 6psi). you'll hit your 108 govenor before the 15 seconds is up, and it'll be recharged by the time you slow down/stop/etc.
yea and that would work for the track, but im talkin about everyday driving, some more passing power, things like that, if im stuck behind a car and see an opening but need 2 get on it a little i dont wanna hafta push a button for it to be there, i want it to just be there......
no no no, you dont understand, it's not just pushbutton power... it has been done for WOT as well.

and i'm surprised nobody has brought up fuel issues. a simple FMU can be used to inject more fuel at WOT... no real worries for a/f and stuff like that for turbo / s/c

and as for passing... i'm guessing with 313 hp, 60-100 speeds are far quicker than anyone would need. [/b][/quote]
so what ur saying is i can slam on the throttle for 10 seconds or whatever it need be, let off and let it automatically be recharged while i do some more normal driving?

i dont need 70 horses or whatever this thing adds, i think id be happy with about 30-35 that was readily available with no heavy mods to the electrical system......

[FormulaNERD]

Originally posted by bigd6983+Nov 23 2004, 10:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bigd6983 @ Nov 23 2004, 10:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-FormulaNERD@Nov 23 2004, 09:00 PM
i havent checked battery prices and such, but i think that the ESC, S&S headers, and CAI would still have you checking in at under 4000, possibly under 3500. take that RSM.
nooo it doesnt compare to on hand power, theres a difference.......
the fact its on hand whenever i need it is enough to sway me and a lot of people into buying another product over his.....

i myself would love to go supercharged when funds permit, i want something ready 2 go, no switches, no batterys to worry about being charged......

just slam on my foot and listen to the whinning lol....... [/b][/quote]
and i dont understand what you mean, no on hand power????

my buddy has an 01 regal gs, supercharged. the boost gauge stays at ZERO unless it's around 80%+ throttle.

this system can mimick that completely. i just dont understand what you're saying.

[bigd6983]

Originally posted by FormulaNERD@Nov 23 2004, 09:11 PM
i agree... in some ways.

i dont mind the batteries if the overall cost is cheaper than RSM and i'm looking at 313 HP at 6psi, without worrying about upgrading internals.

and an automatic engagement at WOT, or even 75% (normal superchargers are the same way)

also IN THEORY, the same supercharger, running on a belt, at the same specs with the same mods and psi will only get you 275hp
and like ive said earlier 313 horses is way too much to be pulling out of those stock internals and tranny.......remember my idea is keeping this daily driver material.......given im a 1/4-1/2 throttle type of guy on a normal day, but sometimes ill go 3/4 just when i feel like feeling the accelleration........that much hp is eventually going to cause problems somewhere........maybe not 2 months, maybe not 6 months, maybe not a year.........but eventually and i plan on having my car for as long as it will hold out......

[FormulaNERD]

Originally posted by bigd6983@Nov 23 2004, 10:18 PM
so what ur saying is i can slam on the throttle for 10 seconds or whatever it need be, let off and let it automatically be recharged while i do some more normal driving?

yes. auto on, auto off. auto charge. it's maint. free once it's installed. and aside from adding power wires and a few switches, the only real electrical system modifications is an upgraded alternator, for quicker recharge.

[bigd6983]

Originally posted by FormulaNERD@Nov 23 2004, 09:19 PM
my buddy has an 01 regal gs, supercharged. the boost gauge stays at ZERO unless it's around 80%+ throttle.

this system can mimick that completely. i just dont understand what you're saying.
meaning if i am full throttling it, hafta let off, full throttle some more and all of a sudden my batteries are drained and need to be recharged, id be kinda irritated......

but like i asked, say i full throttle for 10 seconds and let off, during the period between the next time i go full throttle is it recharging?? even when im going 1/4-1/2 throttle??

[FormulaNERD]

he really needs to show up. i'm acting like the resident expert here when i've just researched it for a few days.

all my facts and projections come from his website, and 4 or 5 forums he has explained in. many skeptics... 3.8 mustang forums, hyundai, taurus... etc.

[bigd6983]

i dunno, coming from a person whos running a lot of accessories, the upgraded alternator would be a must in my situation.......

[FormulaNERD]

Originally posted by bigd6983+Nov 23 2004, 10:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bigd6983 @ Nov 23 2004, 10:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-FormulaNERD@Nov 23 2004, 09:19 PM
my buddy has an 01 regal gs, supercharged. the boost gauge stays at ZERO unless it's around 80%+ throttle.

this system can mimick that completely. i just dont understand what you're saying.
meaning if i am full throttling it, hafta let off, full throttle some more and all of a sudden my batteries are drained and need to be recharged, id be kinda irritated......

but like i asked, say i full throttle for 10 seconds and let off, during the period between the next time i go full throttle is it recharging?? even when im going 1/4-1/2 throttle?? [/b][/quote]
yes. any time you're not pushing the button, or at WOT, or at whatever you set it up at, it is recharging.

depending on the battery it could take a few min or a few seconds to completely recharge. he said acheiving a recharge rate of 1:1 is possible, but a simple setup with 180a alternator and a few batteries gives like 15:1, so that's what 400 seconds to recharge? about 2.5 min.

his neon drag car has a 305amp alternator i believe, and he has a "friend" in the alternator biz... i know that they dont just make 305's for neons, so i'm curious how it got it, and what it was originally for.

[bigd6983]

yea im with ya formula........i dont expect all the answers from you........i know what ive read and what i understand about electronics and how crap works.......but if ur backing this so much i guess i expect u 2 b able 2 answer it all.........

and can you imagine what a custom 305 amp alternator would cost, plus the wiring you would hafta do for that thing.......

and 400 seconds is more like almost 7 minutes, 7 minutes to charge something that only lasts 15 seconds......

that more and more pushes me to believing its application is fitted for drag racing......

[FormulaNERD]

Originally posted by bigd6983+Nov 23 2004, 10:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bigd6983 @ Nov 23 2004, 10:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-FormulaNERD@Nov 23 2004, 09:11 PM
i agree... in some ways.

i dont mind the batteries if the overall cost is cheaper than RSM and i'm looking at 313 HP at 6psi, without worrying about upgrading internals.

and an automatic engagement at WOT, or even 75% (normal superchargers are the same way)

also IN THEORY, the same supercharger, running on a belt, at the same specs with the same mods and psi will only get you 275hp
and like ive said earlier 313 horses is way too much to be pulling out of those stock internals and tranny.......remember my idea is keeping this daily driver material.......given im a 1/4-1/2 throttle type of guy on a normal day, but sometimes ill go 3/4 just when i feel like feeling the accelleration........that much hp is eventually going to cause problems somewhere........maybe not 2 months, maybe not 6 months, maybe not a year.........but eventually and i plan on having my car for as long as it will hold out...... [/b][/quote]
well the 313 is starting with 185hp base, which i estimated from the 3.4 with headers, cai, and exhaust. and at 6psi.

at 5psi, no headers, you're lookin at 240hp... about the perfect amount you're looking for. the stock internals and tranny will run great on 5psi and 240 hp

[FormulaNERD]

Originally posted by bigd6983@Nov 23 2004, 10:33 PM
yea im with ya formula........i dont expect all the answers from you........i know what ive read and what i understand about electronics and how crap works.......but if ur backing this so much i guess i expect u 2 b able 2 answer it all.........

and can you imagine what a custom 305 amp alternator would cost, plus the wiring you would hafta do for that thing.......

and 400 seconds is more like almost 7 minutes, 7 minutes to charge something that only lasts 15 seconds......

that more and more pushes me to believing its application is fitted for drag racing......
sorry i lied. here is a quote from geoff

"That means if a 200 amp alternator is added, and 40 amps are used for the typical AC, stereo, wipers, lights, etc the 160 left over at 80% would give 120 amps to charge the batteries. The ESC draws 1200 amps, so that is a 10:1 ratio. If I make one 15 sec run, then I need 15 x 10 = 150 seconds or 2.5 minutes to recharge it. And if no accessories are parasitic at that time then the rate is even better. "

[FormulaNERD]

another good bit of info....

"Also, as for non-parasitic during boost, the alternator must NEVER be charging the batteries during the ESC operation. That could draw so much current as to catch the alternator on fire. I use a SPDT switch (single pole double throw) so one side is boost and the other side is charging. I prefer that you are sceptical, because that will make you examine it better. All of the customers who have been given a ride in my car come back with a huge grin on their faces because they doubted and then had their heads snapped back :-) Any novel idea is usually met with scepticism. I encourage it. Even the US & International Patent Offices were dumbfounded in that over the last 110 years since patents have been recorder worldwide not a single other person has made one like mine. They allowed the patent on the first inspection--this is NEVER done. It was simply not thought of before. Imagine this: 2006--42 volt systems are standard. 40,000 watt superchargers making 15 psi on factory cars for short bursts are standard. Think not? Visteon (5th largest company in the world) has been trying to do this for the last six years with little success. They could only get a centrifugal design drawing 2500 watts and 50,000 rpm from a brushless motor which worked well on a 1.1 liter motor. It made 4 psi. Mine has made over 25 psi with 36V and special motors. I am just a small one-man business. What could a large company do with my design? We may see fairly soon."

[FormulaNERD]

also i read somewhere that you could take a hybrid car like the insight, add this supercharger, and use the electric part of the hybrid to power the ESC. now that would be cool

[bigd6983]

Originally posted by FormulaNERD@Nov 23 2004, 09:44 PM

sorry i lied. here is a quote from geoff

"That means if a 200 amp alternator is added, and 40 amps are used for the typical AC, stereo, wipers, lights, etc the 160 left over at 80% would give 120 amps to charge the batteries. The ESC draws 1200 amps, so that is a 10:1 ratio. If I make one 15 sec run, then I need 15 x 10 = 150 seconds or 2.5 minutes to recharge it. And if no accessories are parasitic at that time then the rate is even better. "
whats the largest alternator available and mind you he said typical, i dunno about your car but im runnin a lot of extra lighting, my 400 watt inverter, my sound system that pulls maybe 70 amps rms not max......the alternator would be a must and the fact you gotta wait 2 1/2 minutes before you can go again sucks.......thats a lot of down time and thats based on the facts your electrical system is almost devoted intirely to the esc, but in reality that just aint likely......

[bigd6983]

Originally posted by FormulaNERD@Nov 23 2004, 09:50 PM
also i read somewhere that you could take a hybrid car like the insight, add this supercharger, and use the electric part of the hybrid to power the ESC. now that would be cool
yea that would be ideal......

[FormulaNERD]

you're completely right.... and he simply states that if it isnt for you... then you should go another route.

he also says that if there are currently kits (turbo or sc) at decent prices (i.e honda, acura, etc) then this probably isnt for you.

i'm not gonna sit here and convince you because i myself am not convinced, even though i want it primarily for track use.

personally i'd be happy with a 5 min recharge rate. i dont go WOT at a stoplight, and rarely on the freeway.

the fact of the matter is that in the import market 90% of the performance products are geared toward straight line racing.

[bigd6983]

guess you will just hafta take a ride in that nissan to be convinced lol.........im thinkin maybe a turbo is more what i need......i dont want immediate boost at full throttle right off the line, i need something that will create boost at mid-high rpms......this prolly is more what i need........

but id like 2 see this tried out formula, i wish i could go for a ride in that nissan, nothing is better than being in a boosted car, boosted from factory is different than a custom set up, my friends 90 4 door civic was boosted, it just seemed so quick and the sound was amazing......

[FormulaNERD]

ok, before i post these, i want to state that he's built turbo systems since 1972, so he has every right to "bash" turbo setups. and these are all his opinions.

"Why don't you offer turbochargers anymore?

Turbochargers have a 16% failure rate per year. The average turbo lifespan is 13 months. Many of our customers had to replace their entire cartridge once or twice a year. BB turbos—ceramic or not—have an even higher failure rate. In contrast, the Eaton supercharger at the core of our designs averages 150,000 miles between overhauls."

[bigd6983]

yea but that depends on how you run it, i wont be runnin too much boost so it wont have to run as hard, ill make sure i research everything i can before i figure out what im gonna do and how i can keep the turbo efficient as possible.......cars come stock turbo......and they can pull it off, aslong as you keep things within a limit, you can have turbo fun.......

[FormulaNERD]

yea, you're completely right....


but lets keep this on topic, it'll be easier to discuss that way.

now i'm waiting for some people with real s/c knowledge to pick geoff's brain.... i'm also gonna email geoff, because he's taking too long. lol

[FormulaNERD]

i emailed him and already got a reply... i also mentioned the rsm setup...

"HERE IS THE LATEST INFO ON THE ESC SUPERCHARGERS. I COULD ALSO LOOOK INTO A BELT DRIVEN SC. I DESIGN THEM AS WELL, AND FOR A LOT LESS THAN $4500(AFTER INSTALL). I DID A 2005 TBIRD FOR BEVERLY HILLS FORD AND THE CAR TV SHOW 'PIMPO MY RIDE', SO HERE ARE PICS OF ALL THE NEWEST KITS:
HERE ARE SOME PICS AND INFO ON THE NEWEST DESIGN"

[Grouch]

I'd like to see where he gets his numbers for turbo failures. Other than based on his experience. Give me tangible proof or facts. Hell, I can tell you that electric supercharges failure at the rate of 43% or every other month. :rolleyes:

Some other things I take issue to with this thing:

"Odyssey 680 high-CCA batteries"
"They weigh only 13 lbs each."

Try 15.4-lbs each (per the battery manufactures site) x 4 = 61.6-lbs. The ones pictured (PC545) are 12.0-lbs each and there are 6 of those at 72-lbs. This is just battery weight you have added so far. Now add in the "42-lbs" if it is really 42 not sure of how they do their math, add in another 10-lbs for wiring, boxes, holddowns, etc. Now your looking at 113-123 extra pounds, its getting kinda heavy in here. Not the "That's 94 lb in total" that they state.

"a full turbo kit can easily weigh 90-100lb" Wow really? Must be that funny math thing again. Must be one helluva turbo!

"The emergence of lightweight and powerful batteries like the Odyssey units used here also made energizing the blower and packaging the system feasible." Wow I didn't know motorcycle batteries, which is what they are, have recently emerged? What did motorcycle's start with before? Oh yeah, kickstarts that went out in the sixties. Wonder what was used between then and these "new" batteries.

Now I'm not saying this doesn't work. But it does appear to me the information on there site is also not entirely accurate. If just simple adding weights of things are off, what else is off or not accurate? Power figures? I also think I could spend $1000 somewhere else and get something not so questionable for a 15-second burst.

Meant to post this up about 2.5-hrs ago, bad weather moving through shut power off till now.

[FormulaNERD]

ok so yea.... the batteries in the pic are 12lbs each X 6 - 35 (using two of the six to replace the stock battery) and you have 37lbs, 10 for cables, 42 for s/c.... 89lbs total. and you have a fairly even distrobution of the added weight.

good questions, questions i'd also like answered, hopefully he shows up.

[Grouch]

more:

"We offer payment plans with $1K deposit" Uh....I thought it only cost $995. What's on the payment plan? Shipping? lol

"THIS HIGH FLOW 350 CFM PROTOTYPE ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGER.........THIS UNIT DRAWS 255 AMPS @ 24V (5000 WATTS)....YOU WILL GAIN 20-35 HP"
According to the article at 60DegreeV6 I posted up eariler your going to need 745.70-watts to make 1-hp. So with "5000 WATTS" here I get 6.7-hp, not 20-35. Dunno maybe I'm missing something here.

This sc is a roots type charger, when it's not engaged which will be a majority of the time, do the rotors just sit there creating a major restriction in your intake?

[Grouch]

Originally posted by FormulaNERD@Nov 24 2004, 01:07 AM
ok so yea.... the batteries in the pic are 12lbs each X 6 - 35 (using two of the six to replace the stock battery) and you have 37lbs, 10 for cables, 42 for s/c.... 89lbs total. and you have a fairly even distrobution of the added weight.

good questions, questions i'd also like answered, hopefully he shows up.
k so you take out your primary battery and replace it with these six.....you go to a 15-second shot and drain the batteries.....you accidently or for some reason your car shuts off....now your screwed cause your batteries are dead. :D But can you replace it with these six???? I think I read somewhere that they are wired up to be 24-volts, not 12-volts of the car. Man talk about really melting your headling harness. :P

Edit: yep can't remove the car battery and use the sc batts for the car, "The stock battery will be replaced by a high output battery, and the additional batteries will supply the higher voltage necessary to run the ESC." They just recommend switching to an Odyssey battery for your car to save some weight over other batteries.

[Grouch]

I don't get this intake either. Is there another pipe I'm not seeing??? If the BLUE line/arrow indicates incoming air to the sc and the yellow lines/arrows indicate supercharged air going to the engine (and back to the filter), isn't it just defeating the purpose of the whole system? Bad explanation, but I hope you get what I'm saying.

[FormulaNERD]

Originally posted by Grouch+Nov 24 2004, 01:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Grouch @ Nov 24 2004, 01:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-FormulaNERD@Nov 24 2004, 01:07 AM
ok so yea.... the batteries in the pic are 12lbs each X 6 - 35 (using two of the six to replace the stock battery) and you have 37lbs, 10 for cables, 42 for s/c.... 89lbs total. and you have a fairly even distrobution of the added weight.

good questions, questions i'd also like answered, hopefully he shows up.
k so you take out your primary battery and replace it with these six.....you go to a 15-second shot and drain the batteries.....you accidently or for some reason your car shuts off....now your screwed cause your batteries are dead. :D But can you replace it with these six???? I think I read somewhere that they are wired up to be 24-volts, not 12-volts of the car. Man talk about really melting your headling harness. :P

Edit: yep can't remove the car battery and use the sc batts for the car, "The stock battery will be replaced by a high output battery, and the additional batteries will supply the higher voltage necessary to run the ESC." They just recommend switching to an Odyssey battery for your car to save some weight over other batteries. [/b][/quote]
the batteries are seperated, i think he has 8 total, 6 for the esc, and the other two for the car.

the motors for the esc take the 24v (and 36v in some of his models), and the batteries are wired directly into the motors, NOT your vehicles electric system.

he also said in another thread that he did swap his battery for two oddessy's. i'm not sure where you got your info, or if he's using different batteries than the ones powering the s/c, but i was under teh impression that they were the same.

[FormulaNERD]

Originally posted by Grouch@Nov 24 2004, 01:31 AM
more:

"We offer payment plans with $1K deposit" Uh....I thought it only cost $995. What's on the payment plan? Shipping? lol

"THIS HIGH FLOW 350 CFM PROTOTYPE ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGER.........THIS UNIT DRAWS 255 AMPS @ 24V (5000 WATTS)....YOU WILL GAIN 20-35 HP"
According to the article at 60DegreeV6 I posted up eariler your going to need 745.70-watts to make 1-hp. So with "5000 WATTS" here I get 6.7-hp, not 20-35. Dunno maybe I'm missing something here.

This sc is a roots type charger, when it's not engaged which will be a majority of the time, do the rotors just sit there creating a major restriction in your intake?
ok, they have several different systems. from $ 995-2000+. ranging from eaton blowers to centrifugal design.... the down payment starts at 500 and increases in 500$ increments, the price at the time of your downpayment stays the same, even if the price of the unit goes up afterwards.

you're right, your numbers are correct. the electrical system draw is 6.7 hp. and the motors that run the charger put out 6.7hp to spool it up. i just dont see how you think this directly relates to car engine output?? maybe you were under the impression that the electrical system draw is going to equal the amount of boost you get from it? doesnt make sense to me.

when the blower isnt engaged it's completely bypassed, i dont know/understand the plumbing completely but the filter on top is kinda like WAI when the s/c isnt engaged.

[springs fastest alero]

I'm guessing he has a large check valve on the intake because its hooked into the outlet of the sc in the pic
the inlet feeds off the fenderwell it looks like.

as for free power. do you people not realize that the alternator draws power and a larger alternator will draw more power?
yes maybe not as much as a regular sc but it still draws power.

what is he using for motors?
they look like starter motors and I can tell you that even in those short burst your not going to get a high life span out of the motors.
using 3 motors also causes a problem
there is no possible way to ballence even 2 motors exactly alike so you have 3 constantly working against each other.
also a eaton m62 in full dress for our car weighs over 40 lbs. strap 3 motors to the front of it and the weight will jump more
I'd belive closer to 60-75 lbs for an electric sc head unit on our car. plus batteries and such.

another thing not addressd is fuel
with added air you need added fuel. how is he going about this?

for what this thing is doing its on the same level with nitrous not superchargers.
and you can gian more power in a smaller, cleaner, ligter packege with nitrous.

like he says if its not for you then its not for you.
personally mine will stay belt driven

[mike2002]

wouldn't a 12v alternator have problems charging 24v batteries? i guess he includes a transformer.....

also, are the prices of those batteries included in his "995-2000"? probably not, the price just went up another 800 or so. so now your all said and done, for $2000 at least, +220 for a H.O. alternator(thats only 160amps btw)....and what else do you need to install it?

and like someone said, how long will those 3 motors last? guess it depends on how often you use them. but i see ramming huge amounts of air down the intake with the push of a button a problem...

id go with intake, exhaust, headers, underdrive pulley, dhp for right around $1400, that will put you in the mid to high 14's. and about the most hp you want to use for our engine/trans setup, but its constant relieable power. dont have to worry about to much or not enough gas, blowing some crap up. and if thats still not enough power, cams will becoming out eventually, pretty soon actually, get some heads, cams, tb, and you should see a pretty low 14 to a mid 14.

plus, all that weight in the trunk? my ass end already sits lower than the front, i guess the front stays the same, - the battery + the charger.

the alero isn't a "drag racer" car, thats one of the oddest things ive heard in a while, ya i want to give mine some more grunt, but if i wanted a drag racer there are plenty of cars for the same price that are alot faster, like a early style f-body...not trying to change the subject.

1 thing too...you guys are saying, ok, after a 15 second burst, it takes 2.5 minutes. 1, you cant use these things from a dead stop i wouldn't think, you'll blow some crap up. so you hit it at say 30mph, it wouldn't take 10 seconds to hit your limiter, so you have 5seconds of boost while your doing 110+ (if your chipped) so you cant really go any faster, but the system is charging.

[Vtolds]

The so called Electric Supercharger only includes a blower and that is it, no wiring harness, no batteries. I cant seem to find where you can actaully buy the batteries or any real info on the system or costs on the 6 batteries needed to run the system.

Some Faq quotes from the Thomas Knight Site. All negatives.



What do you have to make to install the unit?

1) Three mounts to support it--1" x 1/8" thick steel sections with holes every 2" are available at Home Depot and hardware stores. You cut and bend three pieces to hold the ESC and bolt them in place. 2) Most people already have a cold air kit, so you may have to shorten part of the cold air pipe and connect it to the ESC discharge. 3) Attach your cold air kit's air filter onto the ESC inlet. 4) Mount the BOV, check valve, and optional in-line fuel injector (you can use an FMU instead). You are now done mounting the ESC. All that's left is mounting the batteries and running cables, just like a high end stereo system.




I have a stock alternator. How long will recharging take?

For vehicles with stock alternators rated to 90 amps or less, we recommend either upgrading to a 200+ amp unit, or simply recharging your battery bank at home. If you decide to go with a high-output alternator, your batteries will recharge after several minutes of driving.




What does the ESCâ„¢ sound like? Is it loud?

Yes. It is loud like a large vacuum cleaner at the local gas station. You can hear it from several hundred feet away. The sound is what you would expect from three powerful eletric motors and a positive displacement supercharger. If the air filter is placed a long distance away from the ESC there is virtually no noise at all.

[AnderbrA]

so buy one and experience it yourself rather than argueing about it.... ull either prove your point or look like an ass... all for only a G... :popcorn:

[Vtolds]

Originally posted by AnderbrA@Nov 25 2004, 02:19 PM
so buy one and experience it yourself rather than argueing about it.... ull either prove your point or look like an ass... all for only a G... :popcorn:
All you get is the Blower for 1,000 nothing else that what I was saying I never made a comment about the product itself. Just pinting out the facts nothing more nothing less.

[AnderbrA]

lol i wasnt referring to you directly, its more of a general statement ;)

[Sportalero]

From reading this thread, page by page, I see no real advantage of this kit. You're dropping your battery weight, but then adding the blower, all components, and all the extras batteries which weighs down the car's ability to even be able to fully utilize the power given from the blower. IMO, the only thing you'll gain from those 15 seconds is the "hit" that originally came from the 170 which was lost after adding all that extra luggage. True, this would be good for dragging, in terms of gutting the interior for weight reduction and applying a well-balanced weight ratio between the engine and the batteries in the back. But on a daily driver, this is completely worthless. Go the old fashion route and tweak the engine. More batteries, more wires, more chances to blow your car the F up. MY 2 LINCOLNS

[ATSTURBO]

GEOFF KNIGHT HERE--FINALLY GOT THE ACCOUNT TO WORK. THERE ARE MANY QUESTIONS AND I HAVE THE ANSWERS, BUT I WILL SKIP MOST QUESTIONS BECAUSE THEY PERTAIN TO OUR ORIGINAL UNIT WITH THE EATON SUPERCHARGER. WHILE THAT MODEL 400 & 550 ARE STILL AVAILABLE, OUR LATEST VERSION IS BETTER SUITED FOR STOCK ENGINES AND MAKES 5-6 PSI BOOST. HERE IS THAT INFO:
Â;-) HERE ARE SOME PICS AND INFO ON THE NEWEST DESIGN
ESC-250C, ESC-350CÂ;-)AND ESC-650C, OFFERED IN THREE BOOST LEVELS:
HERE ARE THE MODELS AND THE DISCOUNTED INTRODUCTORY PRICING. RETAIL IS 25% HIGHER.
CL--LOW BOOST (2-3 PSI--$595) AVAILABLE NOW
CM--MEDIUM BOOST (5-6 PSI--$995) AVAILABLE NOW
CH--HIGH BOOST (6-12 PSI--$1495) AVAILABLE JAN, 05
Â;-)
THOMAS KNIGHT ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGERS HAS RELEASED OUR NEWEST DESIGN OF LOW AND MEDIUM BOOST ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGERS. THESE SUPERCHARGERS ARE CUSTOM-BUILT TO ORDER BASED ON ENGINE SIZE. USING A COMBINATION OF HYBRID CENTRIFUGAL SUPERCHARGER COMPONENTS COMBINED WITH OUR HIGH OUTPUT MOTORS WE HAVE DESIGNED THESE FORÂ;-)PERFORMANCE ENTHUSIASTSÂ;-)ON A BUDGET AS WELL AS THOSE WANTING INCREDIBLE AND RELIABLE PERFORMANCE FROM STOCK ENGINES. HP IS INCREASED AT A RATE OF 8-15 HP FOR EACH PSI BOOST YOU RUN.
EXAMPLE: A 140HP 2000CC 4-CYL RUNNING 2-3 PSI WILL MAKE AN EXTRA
20-40HP, AND AT 5-6 PSI MAKE AN EXTRA 50-90HP.
Â;-) THE ESC-350CL AND ESC-650CL LOW BOOST MODELS ARE 2-3 PSI CENTRIFUGAL SUPERCHARGERS. THE 350 IS FOR SMALLER 4-CYL UP TOÂ;-)2.5 AND THE 650 IS FOR ENGINES UP TO 5.0. THESE AREÂ;-)DESIGNED FOR SIMPLE INSTALLATION AND WILL NOT REQUIRE UPGRADING THE FUEL SYSTEM OR ALTERNATOR. STARTING AT $495 FOR THE SUPERCHARGER BY ITSELF, A COMPLETE SYSTEM CAN BE BUILT FOR UNDER $1000.Â;-)AÂ;-)GOOD BATTERY, BATTERYÂ;-)CABLES, ETC ARE A MUST.Â;-)SIMPLE FMU, BOOST GAUGE, ETC IS NEEDED.
Â;-) THE ESC-250CM, 350CM AND 650CM (MEDIUM BOOST) ARE 5-6 PSI ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGERS DESIGNEDÂ;-)TO BE RUN SAFELY ONÂ;-)STOCK ENGINES. THE 250CM IS FOR 2.0 AND SMALLER ENGINES, THE 350 IS FOR ENGINES FROM 1.8 UP TO 2.8, AND THE 650 IS FOR ENGINES UP TOÂ;-)5.0. A PAIR OFÂ;-)EXTRA BATTERIES, A MULTI-FARAD CAPACITOR,Â;-)AND 12/24 SWITCH ISÂ;-)WHAT IS RECOMMENDED FOR THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM.Â;-) GOOD BATTERY CABLES, ETC ARE A MUST. THEÂ;-)FUEL SYSTEM CAN CONSIST OF AN FMU, OR AN ADDITIONAL INJECTOR.
Â;-) THE ESC-350CH AND ESC-650CH HIGH BOOST VERSIONS MAKE UP TO 12 PSI, AND ARE SPECIAL ORDER ONLY. THE ENGINE SHOULD BE PREPARED WITH FORGED INTERNALS, AND AN UPGRADED FUEL SYSTEM.Â;-)THE HIGH BOOST UNITSÂ;-)ARE $1495 FOR THE BLOWER BY ITSELF. THESE MORE POWERFUL UNITS DRAW MORE THAN DOUBLE THE CURRENTÂ;-)OF THE LOW AND MEDIUM BOOST VERSIONS, SO BUYERS SHOULD HAVE LARGE HIGH-OUTPUT BATTERIES, AND A 200+ AMP ALTERNATOR IN THE VEHICLE TO ALLOW FOR FASTER RECHARGING.Â;-)THE HIGH BOOST VERSIONS ARE SUGGESTED FOR DRAG RACING APPLICATIONS ONLY.
Â;-)Â;-)
Â;-)Â;-)LIST OF REQUIRED ACCESSORIES:

Â;-) 1--BATTERIES (BIGGER BATTERIESÂ;-)WILL GIVE ADDITIONAL RUNNING TIME)
Â;-) 2--BATTERY CABLES & TERMINALS ($40)
Â;-) 3--FUEL CONTROL--FMU ($100)Â;-)OR ADDITIONAL INJECTOR SETUP ($250)
Â;-) 4--BOOST & AIR-FUEL GAUGES ($100)
Â;-) 5--COLD AIR INTAKE & PIPES ($50-$70)
Â;-) 6--SOLENOIDS--12/24 SERIES/PARALLEL SWITCH ($100)
Â;-) 7--ACTIVATION SWITCH--PUSH-BUTTON, TOGGLE, OR MICROSWITCH ($20)
Â;-)Â;-)8--MISC WIRING AND CRIMP TERMINALS ($25)

WE RECOMMEND WATER/ALCOHOL INJECTION WITH ANY SUPERCHARGER APPLICATION: http://coolingmist.com IS A GOOD PRODUCT
Â;-)Â;-)
POSSIBLE UPGRADES FOR THE FUTURE:

1- UPGRADED ALTERNATOR (OPTIONAL)
2- BLOW-OFF VALVE (OPTIONAL)

IF YOU ARE NOT SURE WHICH BLOWER TO PURCHASE, CALCULATE WHICH BLOWER YOU NEED USING THE FORMULAS AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS PAGE.

PIC 1--ESC-650CL (650CFM @ 2-3 PSI, ONE 8.2HP MOTOR @ 36V)
PIC 2--ESC-650CM (650CFM @Â;-)5-6 PSI, THREE 6.5HP MOTORS @ 24V)
PIC 3--ESC-350CH (350CFM @Â;-)5-6 PSI, THREE 4HP MOTORS @ 24V)
PIC 4--ESC-250CM (250CFM @Â;-)5-6 PSI,Â;-)ONE 6.5HP MOTOR @ 24V)
Â;-)
THE FORMULA FOR CFM AT 5 PSI BOOST IS: (CU/IN DISPLACEMENT X RPM)/3456 X 1.1=CFM @ 5 PSI
EXAMPLE: (2.0 IS 122 CU/IN DISP X 6000 RPM) /3456 X 1.1= 230 CFM
Â;-)
THE FORMULA FOR REQUIRED ELECTRIC POWER IS:
(CFM X PSI)/229 X SUPERCHARGER EFFICIENCY X MOTOR EFFICIENCY.
CENTRIFUGAL BLOWERS ARE 70% EFFICIENT
HIGH POWER BRUSHED ELECTRIC MOTORS ARE 50% EFFICIENT
1HP = 746 WATTS
EXAMPLE: 2.0 RUNNING 5 PSI (2.0 = 122 CID, AND THAT USES 250CFM @ 6000RPM)
(230 X 5)/229 /.70 /.5 = 14.3HP. 14.3Â;-)X 746 = 10,667WATTS /24 VOLTS = 445 AMPS
Â;-)
FORMULAS ARE SIMPLE:
Â;-)
PSI X CFM /229 /BLOWER EFFICIENCY =POWER REQUIREMENT
ELECTRIC MOTOR EFFICIENCY--6.5 @24V AND 8.2HP @ 36VÂ;-)=50% EFF
Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-) Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-)Â;-) 4HP @ 24V =60% EFF
CENTRIFUGAL BLOWER EFFICIENCY = 70%
1HP = 746 WATTS
2600/16.6= 157CID X 6000 RPM /3456 X .9= 250 N.A. CFM
DENSITY RATIO FOR 5 PSI = 1.22, SO 250 X 1.22 = CFM @ 5 PSI = 305CFM
Â;-)
305 X 6 /229 /.70= 9.5HPÂ;-) 9.5 X 746 /.6 = 12,000 WATTS /24V = 500 AMPS
Â;-)
THE AVERAGE V8 STARTER MOTOR DRAWS 500 AMPS, SO HOW LONG CAN THE STARTER RUN FROM A BATTERY? SAME LENGTH OF TIME AS THE ESC. HOWEVER, THE ESC IS AT 24V, AND TWO BATTERIES IN SERIES HAVE THE SAME RATING AS ONE BATTERY AT TWICE THE VOLTAGE.
Â;-)
THE AVERAGE BATTERY IS 30 AMP/HRS, WHICH IS 30 X 60 MIN =1800
1800/500AMPS = 3.5 MINUTE RUNNING TIME IF THE BATTERIES KEEP COLD (BUT THEY DONT). SO USE 50% TO DETERMINE PEAK DRAW TOTAL SECONDS.
3.5 X 50% = 1.75 MIN (105 SECONDS, OR TEN RUNS OF 10 SECONDS BETWEEN RECHARGES). AGAIN, USE A 20% RECHARGING RATE TO DETERMINE HOW LONG TO RECHARGE. ALTERNATORS MUST SUBTRACT HOW MUCH CURRENT THE CAR NEEDS TO RUN, AND WHAT IS LEFT OVER IS 'EXTRA'. A 100 'EXTRA' AMP ALTERNATOR WOULD TAKE 20% OF RUN TIME, SO EACH 10 SECOND RUN WOULD TAKE 50 SECONDS TO REPLACE THE DEPLETED CURRENT. AFTER TEN RUNS YOU WOULD NEED 10 X 50 (500 SECONDS)Â;-)OR UNDER 10 MINUTES TO FULLY RECHARGE.

[mike2002]

LMFAO, thats $1500-2000 more in ACCESORIES!!!! if you add batteries, BOV, H.O alternator, wires, fuel setup, blah blah, your at 2500 to 3000+ all said and done! plus its probably a nightmare to install. sure you dont have parasitic drag, but you have dead weight, hurting performance, handling, braking...


awesome alternative :thumbsup:

id rather do the NA power setup, intake, exhaust, headers, chip, pulley, ....thats less than 1500, and power all the time, no extra weight (well, more than 10 or so lbs) sure to put you in the 14's... you dont have to worry about crap blowing up so easily but just instantly ramming air down the intake either...much more relieable setup, especially if you were to run to rich or lean with that setup, which i think would be hard to control seeing as how your going from normal to massive amounts of air in 1 second

and a cam should come out pretty soon

no offense, im sure your product works, but its not worth it.... a 75hp nitrous setup can be had for $550 im sure it comes to 1000 with its necessary accessories, maybe less.

[bigd6983]

Originally posted by mike2002@Nov 27 2004, 11:04 AM
LMFAO, thats $1500-2000 more in ACCESORIES!!!! if you add batteries, BOV, H.O alternator, wires, fuel setup, blah blah, your at 2500 to 3000+ all said and done! plus its probably a nightmare to install. sure you dont have parasitic drag, but you have dead weight, hurting performance, handling, braking...


awesome alternative :thumbsup:

id rather do the NA power setup, intake, exhaust, headers, chip, pulley, ....thats less than 1500, and power all the time, no extra weight (well, more than 10 or so lbs) sure to put you in the 14's... you dont have to worry about crap blowing up so easily but just instantly ramming air down the intake either...much more relieable setup, especially if you were to run to rich or lean with that setup, which i think would be hard to control seeing as how your going from normal to massive amounts of air in 1 second

and a cam should come out pretty soon

no offense, im sure your product works, but its not worth it.... a 75hp nitrous setup can be had for $550 im sure it comes to 1000 with its necessary accessories, maybe less.
yea that 1000 nitrous kit would be bad with remote valve opener, nice purge valve, gauges......the kit skiboarder soldnot to long ago was very thorough and it sold for way less than 1000, i think it was around 500.......i agree with you guys, this is not everyday material......in my mind id be too worried if everything is working to enjoy it, its just not street material..........more like race material.......