I Hate How Manufacturers Hate Aftermarket

well installed my Eclipse 8443 a few days ago and had problems with the stupid metra box you have to use to be able to use the radio and security. Thing kept on beeping even after the car was off and only way to fix it was unplug it but that means no radio. Well took it to CC where i got the unit from and we replaced it, and it did it again. So we sat there and went over the installation and the harnesses. As a last ditch effort we call up Metra and start explaining it to them and instantly he knew what we were talking about. He said that the boxes had to be reprogrammed to be 3.6 or 3.7 versions and that the box had to be sent to them to be redone. Well, that just sucks!!! I can't believe no one at Metra would have sent that out to their dealers, and he even said this will be true of all late model GMs..basically 04 and up i guess. How retarded is that why can manufacturers make friendly aftermarket electrical systems? :shout:

[doubleN0alero]

i just deal w/out the chimes

yeah i thought about cutting the wires to the speaker but it is nice to have the chimes tell you when you've got the lights on or when a door is open. I just wish they'd make things nicer. heck ,even the dash kit didn't fit my Eclipse HU, had to trim down the top lip of the kit to allow the HU to flip open.

Yeah, but think how much more you'd hate it if your car was $10k more expensive because all the components were designed to be easily replaced with aftermarket. When you're designing a car, you work with what you have. You make systems work together because it's cheaper and easier.
The average consumer is just happy because his car doesn't cost a lot, it works great, and he never knows the difference.
In your case it sounds like it was the aftermarket that wasn't compatible with the OEM, can't blame the OEM for making design changes. By definition it's the aftermarket that has to keep up with the OEM.

[brsexton]

Originally posted by kampfer422@Oct 6 2005, 01:33 PM
this will be true of all late model GMs..basically 04 and up i guess. How retarded is that why can manufacturers make friendly aftermarket electrical systems? :shout:

Quoted post

This all started with GM in 2001. They started putting the radio on the Data Bus in most cars that year.

Originally posted by brsexton+Oct 6 2005, 06:06 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brsexton @ Oct 6 2005, 06:06 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-kampfer422@Oct 6 2005, 01:33 PM
this will be true of all late model GMs..basically 04 and up i guess.Â;-) How retarded is that why can manufacturers make friendly aftermarket electrical systems? :shout:

Quoted post

This all started with GM in 2001. They started putting the radio on the Data Bus in most cars that year.

Quoted post

[/b][/quote]


yeah but Metra atleast had a box that was compatible with the Data Bus system then. Now Metra doesn't have a compatible box because GM changed their programming again. They better not go the same way Mercedes, Saab, and BMW went and try to add too much electronic stuff in the car and make it unreliable and problematic.

Originally posted by misslindseysue@Oct 6 2005, 02:53 PM
Yeah, but think how much more you'd hate it if your car was $10k more expensive because all the components were designed to be easily replaced with aftermarket. When you're designing a car, you work with what you have. You make systems work together because it's cheaper and easier.
The average consumer is just happy because his car doesn't cost a lot, it works great, and he never knows the difference.
In your case it sounds like it was the aftermarket that wasn't compatible with the OEM, can't blame the OEM for making design changes. By definition it's the aftermarket that has to keep up with the OEM.

Quoted post

actually you're a little off there. manufacturers don't lke aftermarket b/c the dealers then can't charge up the butt prices for subpar equipment. You pay an extra 800$ for an Bose or Infinity system yet you can take that 800$ and get an aftermarket system that could spank it. And if you want a navi unit you pay 2k for it...you can get an Eclipse nai unit for 2k$. Manufacturers are making it harder these days for aftermarket, why do you think dashs like the early 90s sunbirds had a square shaped radio instead of a 1DIN size. Or now they make the door chimes and security systems programmed through the radios. Its probably harder for them to have Pioneer, Panasonic, or whoever makes their radios now programmed to be compatible with the rest of the car than to have a radio work by itself. If i do recall it was aftermarket that made the sizing standardized.

actually you're a little off there.

Yeah, I know nothing about the automotive industry. :rolleyes: OEMs really don't care if dealers make money selling parts. They'd rather they didn't sell any parts, because it means their cars aren't falling apart. All OEMs need dealers for is selling cars, period. If they could sell them direct, they would, trust me. OEMs just don't make that much off parts. They'd rather you were happy that your car didn't need to be fixed and you bought another new one in 3 or 4 years. For the most part dealers just piss people off and give the OEMs a bad reputation, especially true in the case of GM.

[mikegett]

Originally posted by misslindseysue@Oct 7 2005, 02:16 AM

Yeah, I know nothing about the automotive industry. :rolleyes: OEMs really don't care if dealers make money selling parts. They'd rather they didn't sell any parts, because it means their cars aren't falling apart. All OEMs need dealers for is selling cars, period. If they could sell them direct, they would, trust me. OEMs just don't make that much off parts. They'd rather you were happy that your car didn't need to be fixed and you bought another new one in 3 or 4 years. For the most part dealers just piss people off and give the OEMs a bad reputation, especially true in the case of GM.

Quoted post

Agreed. OEM pricing is percieved as being to there advantage. In reality, OEM profits are marginal at best. The major factor in the "800" dollar HU is labor costs. Our facility produces OEM HU's for Toyota and GM. Our line can produce about 450 units in a 8 hour period. There are 8 people on one line. Itmeans that one person would equal 56.25 units. Divide that by 8 hours and you get 7.03 units a hour. Our facillity pays an average of 8 dollars a hour to class 6 teammates. That would be $56.25 in final assembly labor costs alone. Concidering that the pcb goes through a machine room for parts placement, there would be a direct labor cost there as well. After that, indirect labor must be added into the equation. Technical staffing. We average 14-15 a hour. Warehouse, maintengance, office, and senior staffing all must be totaled and divided by the entire plants production to yield a percentage. Here is the tricky part. The more production you have, the smaller the percentage will affect. However, the larger the production the more direct labor that is needed. Catch 22 sounds appropriate right now. At our facility, the average HU costs 250 to 350 dollars. Once it leaves our plant, there is a markup for the OEM vendor. You will be suprised to find that it is not very high. The major mark up is at the dealer. This is why 20 -30 dollars an hour for unskilled labor is killing the auto industry. It is not the manufacturer that is driving the product to out source in other countries. It is the extreme cost in labor.
kampfer422, You would be suprised to find out what does go into OEM production. OEM and aftermarket research go hand in hand. Without the OEM companies drive in Research and Development, you would not have the Eclipse 8443 in your car today. The OEM research not only focuses on the new technology but most importantly how to decrease the cost. Every feature of the Eclipse 8455 has been available for a decade in aftermarket. OEM is what combined space saving and cost cutting technology to achieve it. The new Eclipse NAV is a flashy version of the OEM's in Toyota and Lexus. They have the same processor and dvd drive. The advantage of the OEM is that it uses a digital signal out. I know of one aftermarket HU that has a digital out and it retails at nearly 2 grand. GM came out with a very nice feature for ther 2005 and up HU's. They are fully flashable. That means that in order to achieve the latest compression compatibility it only needs a software uprgade. I doubt you will ever see that in aftermarket.

while i see what you're talking about, if OEM and aftermarket are so buddy buddy then they should make things more friendly rather than more complex. Also i believe Toyota is using Pioneer equipment right now or atleast in the Scions even though i thought they had their foot in the Fujitsu-Ten Corp. But if OEMs are doing so much research, then why aren't they putting any of this in stock stuff instead of shafting you with POS's. In the end it all comes down to money and they sure get their money out of us.

[mikegett]

Toyota has many vendors producing the products. We are given a specification of the products looks, abilities, performance, and price. How we achieve it is where the difference comes into play. Fujitsu produces a large percentage of Toyota and Lexus products. Car audio is only a portion. The real money is in motoronics (car electronics) products like cruise control, remote entry, Throtle control, ECU and brain boxes.
Don't mistake OEM and aftermarket as being one and the same. They are not. I am stating that they share many of the same R&D, products, and even resources. As for cost, you are comparing apples to oranges. OEM is a portion or componant of a end product. You are paying for everyone and every part needed to assemble that part. Aftermarket is not hindered by as much of this. Aftermarket products are nearly all made out side of the US for a fraction of the cost that OEM is produced. OEM may outsource a HU but the cost of paying 20 to 30 an hour for assembling the car must be taken into concideration. I am just stating that the variables go beyond the price tag.
OEM HU's have been using advanced tecnology for over a decade. However, most of these products were seen in luxury vehicles. I have worked for Fujitsu for nine years this month. In that time, only one Toyota HU in our plant used high level outputs. They have either been low level or digital. The eclipse navigation has been in Lexus cars for over 4 years. The new generation of HU's not only are audio but expand to wave radar, car diagnostics, navigation and more.

so if you work with Fujitsu can you get my the some of the Nav units they have in Japan??? I would really like one...also any plans for a 8053 replacement??? And what the crap happened to the East Coast rep? What did he do, just get up and leave?

[mikegett]

The Asian HU's are sweet. I bought a minidisk unit that was modeled after the 5303R. It looked identical to it with the exception that it loaded 5 mini disks opposed to a cd. The deck was silver with a gold grand prix checkering across the front. The problem is that the radio stations, navigation and tv broadcast will not work in the US. On the nav and double din lcd deck some functions are not in english. Since a Nav deck uses global satelites that are dedicated to the region, the software is region specific. They do not have the capability to change from one region to the next.
We are still pretty limited on knowing what Eclipse products are in production. We deal with OEM production and see very little Eclipse. They will pass through our plant when warranty claims are overloaded like in the 2002 models with cd skipping. On some occassions products may be in production but not released when a problem is found. Since we are the major plant in the US we may deal with it.
I can't comment on what eclipse may have in store for the future. I would be suprised to see another version of the 8053. They were not a very high seller and carried over for nearly 3 years. I would expect to see most of the R&D focus going toward Car Infotainment (navigation and dvd). Fujitsu has been a strong influence on flat panel technology. They produced the first home plasma tv retailing around 35 grand in the late 90's. Since then, they have been one of the largest producers of lcd. I am not possitive, but I do think that they still own the lcd portion. About three years ago Fujitsu liquidated alot of the smaller companies. Mostly in computers. Sorry about the rambling, it is getting late.

can you verify that the 8443 has a band pop on and off noise, and did Eclipse ever figure a way to fix it for that model. Also i haven't been able to see in person a AVN54 series unit cause all the local shops here have it on special order. Does it carry the same PEQ as the 84 series HUs?

[mikegett]

I have not seen a issue come through concerning the 8443 in particular. I am sure that like all models, it has had warranty claims. I have seen postings concerning the 04 models for pop on noise as well as preamp noise. If there is a issue with a turn on pop, it would be difficult to isolate. The 04 and 05 models should have a delay built into the HU to act as a soft turn on. However, if there is a hardware problem some costumers may not know it due to amplifiers having a built in soft turn on.
The nav's don't have a PEQ. They have a graphic eq with user selectable and preset functions. I believe they were 9 band.