hydrogen fuel mixture

[undecided02]

so I have been working out the physics behind it and I have come to the conclusion that via the use of a hydrogen fuel cell one can obtain the exact same horsepower while using less fuel. the average gasoline engine uses an AFR of about 14.7:1 (38% fuel, 62% air). Now, by injecting hydrogen gas into the mix it is possible to use less gasoline as hydrogen picks up roughly half of that 38% fuel mixture. If fuel could be reduced half of the 2.2cc mixture currently used in the alero's LA1 V6 (per cylinder) this would mean a 19% gasoline 19% hydrogen mixture. The Stoiciometric fuel mixture would still be 14.7:1 but the actual gasoline mix would be .19 as upposed to .38. long story short, the same power could be achieved with less fuel. throw in a turbo/intercooler set up and one could achieve say 100 extra hp at the same fuel cost as if they had a stock V6. any input?

[cherrington17]

how are you getting the hydrogen into the car?? if your using the alternator and breaking water down, via electrolysis, your not going to gain power.

"energy can't be created or destroyed" your alt is going to use as much power as you'll gain.


the other downside is that hydrogen burns MUCH hotter, and would cause pitting or early damaging to your internals. (cylinders/pistons/valves..etc) the combustion chambers aren't meant for that kinda heat... (if your math is a little off)


Look up HHO. the physicists just LOVE to tear that idea apart.

[Midgear]

I have no idea what any of that means.. I understood LA1 V6 and that's about it lol

but in all seriousness.. what brings you to this conclusion and why did you happen to come up with it?

[CactusWill]

That has been well known.

[jayson_waltz]

it does make sense, but how will you control the injection of the hydrogen so good through the whole RPM range?

[surreal_awakening]

We've had this discussion before. There are numerous issues. While hydrogen content has about 3x as much energy by weight as gas, it is a much lower density than gas, even in liquefied form, meaning larger tanks are needed, and when in gaseous form, they need to be bigger still. Next up, are you talking about onboard HHO generation? There are electrical requirements to be met. Then there are injection issues to overcome. Metering the amount induced into the engine is key. Possibly a regulator similar to the ones used by the diesel guys who inject propane? I'm all for alternative energy, but I think we hashed this out pretty well in the past, and it's really not all that realistic. But if all the inventors listened to the naysayers, we'd be nowhere, so by all means, go for it!

[cherrington17]

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=123863

[Vinalero]

I was in favor of hydrogen for fuel substitute, the problem is: Producing Hydrogen needs more energy than what it would help the population save. So whats the point?

[undecided02]

first off you are all right. the system has yet to be perfected. I still have to come up with a way to produce onboard hydrogen, via electrolysis, without a huge power drain on the vehicle's alternator. As for the wear that will be sustained by the engine I have yet to calculate the density of the steel used in the cylinder walls, and the pistons of the LA1 V6. This all started when I got sick of paying a ridiculous gas price and decided to try and figure out how to save money. I settled on hydrogen as a secondary fuel mixture because water, the main hydrogen resevoir, is essentially free. I have been using the 3400 V6 as a model for my calculations, but the end resault will hopefully be a design for a revised 3.4L V6 built to run on both fuels simultaniously. Im still in the paper stage lol but I will post my findings in the off topic section once I start the actual real world tests (No im not gonna blow my alero up, Im gonna purchase a used 3400 and begin rebuilding it to new specifications. expensive yes, but someone has to do it.)

[cherrington17]

i really hope to see some progress with this.... but from what i've seen, it doesn't gain much....

if you can get around those few speed bumps, and that canyon of a power problem... i'll drive to where you are to see how you did it.

[surreal_awakening]

^^^ cherry just clocked an even 9,000 posts ^^^ Ding! Ding! Ding! What do we have for him today, Bob? cherry, you just won a cookie!

[cherrington17]

thank you.. thank you....


hey... wait a minute... this cookie is stale!! and smells funny....

[surreal_awakening]

Originally Posted by cherrington17

hey... wait a minute... this cookie is stale!! and smells funny....

Uhhmmm..... I know nothing

[surreal_awakening]

Hey wait...that's 9,001 now...gimme back my stale cookie!

[AGT]

Something like this?

http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm

[undecided02]

sort of, my design isnt a departure from say the "water for gas" method. trouble with conventional hydrogen methods is that they all rely on introducing hydrogen into the intake air. this is an OK method of achieving a hydrogen fuel mix, but it is not an accurate way to achieve a desired balance between gasoline and hydrogen. In order to most accurately introduce hydrogen into the fuel mixture is to direct run it into individual cylinders. my theory is that by somehow introducing an exact measure of hydrogen gas into each cylinder (likely with a second form of fuel injector) one could control an exact half gasoline/ half hydrogen atomized mixture. I still have to calculate what the exact volume of hydrogen would need to be, but I'll get around to it. its kinda hectic balancing work, partying, and working in my engine lol but I'll update.

[surreal_awakening]

Direct injection is the best method, be it direct into the cylinders, or into the individual intake runners, through injectors as you said. In order for this to work, however, it would seem to me that you would need to be using liqufied or compressed gaseous hydrogen, in either case, not something you can produce through an on-board HHO generator. Both liquification and compression require further energy to produce, and storage issues arise. Also, in a few cases where this was done, I seem to recall reading about some issues with getting the injection timing right as well. I think the hydrogen has a tendency to detonate early, before the valves are closed all the way, because of the high residual heat in the cylinder from the previous ignition cycle.

Edit: Here's a report posted on the DOE's Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy web site that gives a lot of detailed information on hydrogen in internal combustion engines. It's detailed, yet still mostly layman's terms so it's easy to wrap your head around it.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogen...fs/fcm03r0.pdf

[undecided02]

thanks I'll take a gander at it tonight. always apreciate input

[undecided02]

so a key faul with hydrogen injection has come into play. hydrogen ignites at a lower temperature than that of gasoline. this means that it could cause some fun and exciting misfires within an engine. but no worries I shall just have to work out a sufficiant AFR mixture. thanks for the link it provided a lot of new ground to cover.

[surreal_awakening]

No problem. Good luck with it. I thought about pursuing it myself, or straight electric, but alternative energy has taken a back seat to school, work, family, and the rest of the Alero project. I'd love to see someone work it out.